


FIFTH SESSION /
FIRST SITTING		:	NORMAL	:	17, 18, 19, 20 AND 26 MARCH 1998
								






								
								

	VOLUME 1 / 
	1998







SPINE:	VOLUME 1 1998
















HANS\COV198

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	FIRST SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 17 MARCH 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 11.42 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ~ULUNDI~.
HIS MAJESTY, THE KING, KING GOODWILL ZWELITHINI KABHEKUZULU, KASOLOMON KADINUZULU, IS ESCORTED INTO THE CHAMBER BY THE SPEAKER.

THE POLICE BAND PLAYS THE NATIONAL ANTHEM.

THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  I will first read the message to the Commonwealth for 1998.  This comes from her Britannic Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, head of the Commonwealth of Nations:

	The Commonwealth provides many special links between its members.  Apart from the more formal contacts between governments, there are any number of professional associations and voluntary organisations with close connections throughout the Commonwealth.  Amongst the most active are those involved in sport and recreation.  

	I believe that sport will always play a very important part in the social welfare of all generations.  Sport and team games, in particular, teaches young people many valuable social lessons.  It demonstrates the value of co-operation, team work and team spirit; it teaches the need to abide by rules and regulations; it emphasises the importance of self-control and how to take victory or defeat with good grace.

	Sport is a great leveller.  The same rules applies to all; there are no age, racial or cultural barriers to participation.  Indeed, enthusiasm for a sport brings people together from every background.  Some sports attract dedicated spectators.  Some do not, but that makes no difference to the participants.  All are absorbing and enjoyable, offering unique opportunities for self-discovery and to develop self confidence.  For many young people participation in sport can offer a lifeline and essential alternative to delinquency, drug abuse or crime.

	The Commonwealth Games are the organisation's greatest sporting festival and rightly known as the "Friendly Games".  It is always the athletes from the smallest nations who receive the warmest welcome and it is the sporting gesture that wins universal recognition.  The Games take place every four years; this year they will be held in Malaysia, where every effort is being made to ensure that competitors, officials and spectators will thoroughly enjoy the experience of this great gathering.  Manchester, too, has already begun preparations to host the Games in 2002.

	The Commonwealth Games will indeed bring us together.  I am much looking forward to joining them.

Long live the Queen, long live the Head of the Commonwealth.

That was a speech from her Britannic Majesty as I have already said.

I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge our guests who we have in this session today.  We have:

	His Royal Highness, Prince M G Buthelezi, the Minister of Home Affairs and Chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders, and Her Royal Highness, Princess Irene.

	The Hon L P H M Mtshali, the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, and Mrs Mtshali.

	The Hon Mrs E Shandu, Deputy Minister of Public Works, and Mr Shandu.

	The Hon B T Ngcuka, Deputy Chairperson, National Council of Provinces.

	The Hon G E Nkwinti, Speaker of the Eastern Cape Legislature, and Mrs Nkwinti.

	The Hon Dr F T Mdlalose, the former Premier, and Mrs Mdlalose.

	~Inkosi~ B Mzimela from the House of Traditional Leaders.

	Members of the Parliamentary Provincial Programme Organisation who are among us.

I further want to acknowledge the Consular Corps who are with us in this gathering:

	The Hon M K Lokesh, Consul General of India.

	The Hon Debra Goldthorpe, Consul for the United Kingdom, and her partner.

	The Hon Hassani Frederic, Consul General of the United States of America, and partner.

	The Hon John Hooper, Vice-Consul of the United States of America.

	The Hon A J Dijkstra, Consul of Netherlands, and his partner.

	The Hon Coucaud Christian, Consul of France, and his partner.

	The Hon Drei Massimo, Consul of Italy, and his partner.

	The Hon Erswell Granville, Consul of Spain.

	The Hon Bocca Jaime Zacarias, Consul of Mozambique, and his partner.

	Mrs Stavros Tsiepas Consul for Greece.

Those are our distinguished visitors that are present.

It is now my honour, and indeed, my pleasure, to call upon His Majesty, King Goodwill Zwelithini, to give us his address on this occasion.  As Your Majesty pleases.

HIS MAJESTY, THE KING:  Mr Speaker, the Premier, Dr B S Ngubane,  Prince of KwaPhindangene, Minister of Home Affairs and Chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders, members of the Royal Family, ~Amakhosi~ neziNduna, members of Parliaments outside KwaZulu-Natal, members of Parliament in the Government of National Unity, your Excellencies, dignitaries from other provinces, officers of other governments and institutions, members of the diplomatic corps, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen.

Rituals and routines sometimes tempt us to take things for granted.  Practices and traditions also have a tendency to make us even guess what speakers will say and what is not likely to happen in spite of the speeches.  Perhaps it is only the Parliamentary budget speeches that are seriously feared to make a positive or negative difference once they have taken place.

It is a ritual that I have to address you on this occasion, after which the Premier gives a vote of thanks.  The question I have asked myself is whether my remarks to you and to the citizens of KwaZulu-Natal, in general, have made a difference.  I take comfort, however, in remembering that so much of what we have praised, remains praiseworthy.  So much of what we have motivated for, seems to have caught the eye of some communities.  We have condemned violence and waywardness.  There seems to be improvement in this regard.  We have encouraged people to think about development and not only about politics.  Many people now expend their energies on the development of their communities rather than exclusively politicking.

Mr Speaker, it is the first time that I address your assembly after the inauguration of the Premier, Dr B S Ngubane.  May I take this opportunity to congratulate him on the onerous position.  There must be a sense of gratification from the people you have worked with for a long time to serve the disadvantaged communities in particular.  I wish you and all the people that you are going to be working with the courage, resilience and vision that your position demands.

I am aware of the concerted efforts that have been made by members of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislative Assembly to re-establish peace in this Province.  Some leaders who have struggled to establish peace, experienced losses in their families through violence.  The restoration of peace in devastated communities is a difficult task.  Some of your own people, members of your own groups, do not endorse your efforts if they think that the reconciliation you are talking about is premature.  They want to engage in vindictive acts, get satisfied that they have now got even with their enemies, before they talk peace.  However, we know that as long as people talk revenge, as long as they are bent on counting the number of casualties on each side, they never reconcile.

My conviction is that, our Province, which has been endowed by God with a variety of Nations, cannot afford unnecessary wastage of human resources or talent.  Let us use every opportunity to build edifices of power, love, and care on the God-given foundations that consist of different cultures and traditions.

By cultures and traditions here, I do not suggest that these emanate from ethnic or racial misunderstandings.  I refer to the fact that people in our society have different cultures and traditions of thinking politically, economically and socially.  People have taken arms against one another because they have found difficulty to accept other peoples' views, beliefs, traditions of thinking about freedom of association, and freedom of expression.

This is the time to display tolerance of other peoples' choices or preferences.  We can only grow to be responsible leaders and adults if we develop fully, skills to listen and to empathise.  We must spend some time carefully appreciating why other people think the way they do.  If we give ourselves time for one another, we shall indeed be true leaders of this Province.  We shall be able to deal with the oncoming general elections democratically, do everything possible to maximise delivery within the budgetary constraints, help improve the quality of education, address poverty and economic development.

There will be general elections in 1999.  When reading newspapers, one realises that there is nobody more aware of this fact than politicians are.  There are already some signs of this awareness.  Some articles, statements or addresses are now beginning to be permeated by emotions, mudslinging, cynicism, and diversion from development issues to political matters almost exclusively.   

A lot of good or bad seed for the success or failure of the 1999 general elections can be sown now.  I plead with you all, plus people outside your Cabinet or Parliament, to lay good foundations for peace.  I cannot tell you how to campaign.  Yet I need to say something about elections.  I cannot leave everything for next year.  In March/April 1999, it will be too late to make any inputs regarding what takes place en route to the elections.  We should concern ourselves with a government that is consistent with social, political development projects, and good governance.

Mr Speaker, I wish to appeal to those who will be visiting different areas to campaign for votes.  It will be a sorry day if leaders of different organisations visit different areas, but as a result of a lack of proper connections, they are denied the opportunity of talking to their followers.  I understand from some ~Amakhosi~ that no permission is sought from relevant authorities to address a mass meeting.  I do not believe we should be talking about no-go areas in 1999.  Let people be educated, socialised and orientated to the peace level that we are, at present, operating on.  We cannot allow this jewel of ours to slip off and be drowned by noises of a political nature designed to mar peace achievements that have been made in this Province.

Mr Speaker, I wish to ensure that the goodwill we have worked for is never put in doubt by those people who do not work for the good of our Province.  

Mr Speaker, I wish to speak about the budget constraints that the government has come across.  We know that many communities have needs which need to be addressed.  I wish to encourage people to work for themselves in order to make things for themselves where money is not sufficient.  We, as communities, have a role to play by being honest, diligent, thrifty and be soldiers that are fighting corruption in our dealings with the Government.

Much of the government money is spent by people who are very unreliable.  I am referring here to people who earn old age pensions when they are not supposed to be earning them.  
There are many people who earn pensions together with their children that have been included fraudulently into the programmes of pension earning, whereas they do not fit in such programmes.  


Mr Speaker, what is worrying is that this evil takes place in broad daylight, but is never reported.  People are afraid to report fraudulent deeds because they are afraid to be killed, but I say people should come out in the clear and fight against this, because this will mean the downfall of our nation.  We should fight against evil.  We should cooperate in fighting against corruption and fight against those people who have lost their feelings.  


Another issue that I would like to stress and which I have touched on is diligence.  We shall help our Province to be viable.  Twenty people should produce work, work to be generated by twenty people.  If twenty people produce work that is equal to that of only ten people, then we are wasting resources on paying the ten that does not do anything.  No government will be able to look after people who are unproductive even when they have an opportunity to work.

Another issue I wish to touch on Mr Speaker is that, we as parents and members of the public, we should help the employees to perform their duties.  My main concern is that at least let them derive joy from doing the full work of the day.  This can be proved by the completion of the queues of people who would otherwise have gone home being served.

I will not look down upon some employees, Mr Speaker.  I know government employees who do not knock off as long as there are people who need to be served, yet there are those who sit down, make telephone calls or talk to their friends, or even study at work while people wait to be served.

As the head of the Zulu nation, I feel I have the responsibility to touch on the matter of co-operation between the government and the Traditional Leaders in various levels of Government.  From the National Government and the Local Government, we are aware that no final solution has been reached.

I would like the political parties involved in this matter not to take it lightly.  It is important.  It is preferable to deal with it co-operatively without merely being interested to get the community's vote, but to cater for the needs of the communities who have lived under the sovereignty for many years.  It is also important that cognisance is taken of the role that ~Amakhosi~ play in many areas where they serve the communities in many ways.  Working relationships between the councillors and the ~Amakhosi~ should be encouraged in areas where these programmes are both in place.  I know this is a serious matter, but we should face it so that the status of the ubukhosi may be improved and made clear to everybody.  This is a challenge which the political leaders are faced with.  Co-operation and being sympathetic to one another is what will make the National Government succeed.  

I am not even satisfied if it is said that the matter of the ~Amakhosi~ will be dealt with.  When is it going to be dealt with, and how, because this has been in practice for very long. [LAUGHTER]   They should be given their own places because they have never contested politics with anybody.  This nation will prosper quickly.

I would like to announce that, during the course of the year, I will, again, be observing ~Umhlanga~, ~Umkhosi~ ~WokweShwama~, and ~Umkhosi~ ~WeLembe~ celebrations.  I look forward to your support.

The importance of these ceremonies does not end up by uniting the Nation, but encourages the remembrance of that which is dear to us and the custom value for us as a nation.  There is a great need for us as a nation to reflect upon ourselves and search the history of our traditions.  The nation is today faced with numerous difficulties such as crime, diseases such as AIDS, and the diminishing of respect etcetera.  I believe that if we worry ourselves about reminding ourselves and reviving the traditions which our forefathers were following, we can realise that humanity will return to the people so that they will live a life of self-respect and a life which will prevent the youth from being wayward people, who can end up in the temptations which can lead them to be afflicted by diseases such as AIDS.  Government campaigns to combat this disease is applauded.

May I register the great pain that we felt last year owing to serious incidents that took place.  Though one cannot count them all, however, first and foremost, I wish to express condolences to those families who lost their loved ones through violence.  There is no need for the eruption of quarrels while we have spoken about reconciliation.

Then I will further render my condolences and my utmost grief at the incident that took place near Mandini where more than thirty people perished in a bus accident.  I mean those who burnt to death when the bus they were travelling in collided with a petrol tanker.  This was a really painful situation.  If we can learn from what happened that would be useful in the future.  In accidents of this nature we learn not to over-speed, not to drive when one is drowsy, not observing red triangles put on the road to show that a vehicle has encountered a break-down on the road.

Let me also applaud what the government has done in trying to safeguard the lives of the people.  These programmes are aimed at securing the safety of drivers and pedestrians.  I believe communities should also help in seeing that these plans are carried out.  

Just recently we heard about the disaster of eleven children who drowned.  This is a terrible accident which makes the parents of the children say if, if, if.  In Zulu we say one cannot predict death, but what is clear is what the Premier, Dr Ngubane, referred to when he said the absence of safe crossing places, where children can cross when coming back from school, is cause for concern.

Although I do not mean to punish the Minister concerned with roads, but I think those places where our children cross and where dangers often occur, should be safeguarded by building crossing places where it will be safe for them to do so.  I ask you, Mr Ngubane, to please see to it that this is carried out.

I think Mbomvu it would be advisable if such a situation is looked into, although funds are scarce, it is us who are going to leave our children not them.

We, as parents, various communities, we must not sit on our laurels when there is a danger that is hovering above the heads of our children day in and day out.  There should be some means that are devised while we are still negotiating with the government to do something, should circumstances permit.

Numerous other incidents comprised of floods which demolished houses and fires that razed houses to the ground and left people without shelter.  We sympathise with you for all this.

Rural areas consist of about 72% blacks.  A lot of development is taking place in some sections of rural areas.  Schooling facilities are being provided for, thanks to the parents, teachers and pupils who work hard to look after their schools, after the premises and gardens, and who even raise school fees to sustain the school.

Yet rural areas need a turn-around of attitudes.  We know that not everybody from rural areas finds work in town.  We also know that not every corner of the country in rural areas has non-arable land.  Further, not everybody in rural areas is sickly and some can use their hands.  So we need to stand up and do work exactly where we are.  Let us produce.  Let us move away from laziness.  We may start small.  It may look as if we are under-utilising ourselves, but in due course we will realise that our efforts have not been in vain when we begin to produce from our land.   People should not wait for hand-outs from the government because no government will give out hand-outs to people who are not prepared to help themselves.  Which government will ever be responsible for that?  I discourage lazy people.  People should come together and work very hard towards their well-being.

Mr Speaker, let me comment about the rampant criminality that has occurred among us where people just strip somebody's car of its tyres as if those tyres were placed there by them.  [LAUGHTER].  All criminality is bad.  Recently robbing of vehicles that deliver monies was very rife in our Province.  One was even made to think that maybe they were people from other provinces who had come to rob us.

I feel bad if tourists are being roughed up.  People have come afar to come and enjoy themselves and find themselves being robbed here.  People should stop this kind of criminality where females and children are being molested.  People must learn to live together in peace and stop killing each other.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank all the people of different persuasions who have sustained Zulu traditions and culture.  In particular I wish to thank ~uMntwana~ ~waKwaPhindangene~, Dr M G Buthelezi, for the significant role he plays in the Zulu nation, other members of royalty and ~Amakhosi~ who have been supportive to the Monarchy, and the Department of the Premier for its technical and financial guidance.  I know that the Province of KwaZulu-Natal has gone through a bad stretch.  I thank all the people who have made it possible for those problems to be solved and not be what they were perceived to be.

What we have achieved encourages me to think that our future is very bright because if we work against all the obstacles that stand in our way we will see a bright future where we can achieve many things in co-operation.

As we face 1998, I appeal to you as I have done in the past.  We need to join hands and become an inspiration to our people.  Let us convert all disadvantages to advantages.  I have confidence in you.  Such confidence convinces me that we can achieve this.  I know we can reverse pain, trauma and desperation.  We can create pleasure, lasting peace and hope.

With these words, Mr Speaker, I wish to declare this Assembly open.

E SPEAKER CALLS UPON THE PREMIER TO GIVE A VOTE OF THANKS TO HIS MAJESTY, THE KING.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, Your Majesty, His Excellency, Dr M G Buthelezi, Prince of KwaPhindangene, Minister of Home Affairs and Chairman of the House of Traditional Leaders in our Province, members of the Royal Family, ~Amakhosi~ neziNduna, members of Parliaments outside KwaZulu-Natal, members of Parliament in the Government of National Unity, your Excellencies, dignitaries from other Provinces, members of the diplomatic corps, Officers of other Governments and institutions, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen. 

I would like to acknowledge the presence here today of the first Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, Dr F T Mdlalose, and his wife.  

I would like also to acknowledge the presence here today of the Deputy Chairman of the National Council of Provinces.  He has come here with a delegation of eight members from the National Council of Provinces, which gladdens our heart, because the National Council of Provinces plays a vital role in the life and governance of provinces.  

I would also like to acknowledge the Deputy Chairman of the Council of Traditional Leaders at National level.  His presence here also marks the importance of this gathering.

It is my singular honour, Mr Speaker, to thank His Majesty on behalf of this House, for graciously agreeing to open this session officially this morning.

We have been inspired by your words, Your Majesty, and feel determined to face the challenges of government.   It is my pleasure to pledge our support for the good ideals that ought to guide us all as we both lead and serve the different communities of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  

Mr Speaker, we have been comforted by His Majesty's words of empathy and encouragement especially as we have been persuaded to think peace, development and solid foundations for the future.  

His Majesty has spoken about the tradition of rituals, Mr Speaker.  I am glad that passing a vote of thanks to His Majesty after opening the Legislature, is not as yet a ritual for me.  It is the first time I do it and perhaps like a maiden, I mean every word I say.  I wish to thank His Majesty for his congratulatory and encouraging words.  I am lucky to have role models to inspire and uplift me in the important task of leading the government of KwaZulu-Natal.  His Excellency, the Prince of KwaPhindangene, Minister of Home Affairs in the National Government of South Africa, and Chairman of the KwaZulu-Natal House of Traditional Leaders, continues to inspire me and lead me as the President of my Political Party, the ~Inkatha~ Freedom Party.

The Prince of KwaPhindangene is steeped in the history of this part of South Africa.  He is not only the Prime Minister of the Kingdom of KwaZulu, but also a statesman and ruler of people.  I thank Your Excellency for taking your rightful place at today's opening of the KwaZulu-Natal Parliament.

My other role model is the Honourable Dr Frank Mdlalose.  As medical colleague, as National Chairman Emeritus of my party and as a stalwart in working for peace and reconciliation in KwaZulu-Natal, he has been outstanding in his achievements.  As the first Premier in the first government of KwaZulu-Natal following the 1994 elections, Dr F T Mdlalose, or Dr Frank as he is popularly known, has set a number of bench marks in the governance of this Province.

These two leaders have demonstrated to me the fruits of fortitude and the value of integrity, diligence and conscientiousness.

We are blessed to achieve a reduction in violence in this Province.  I am only sorry that violence seems to be reported more effectively in urban areas.  There are several pockets of violence in some rural areas where people are violently killed for political and criminal reasons.  These seem not to be reported or commented upon as much as those that take place in urban areas.

Mr Speaker, a need remains to nurture our youth in a conducive environment which upholds good values of society, and I was particularly pleased and thankful when His Majesty mentioned the issue of AIDS.  We need parents, and all of us adult people in this Province, to help inform the young people about the dangers of sexual promiscuity, pre-marital sex, because that is a sure way of contracting HIV.  
We, as adult citizens of our Province, must be exemplary in observing healthy habits in reconciling with our neighbours or in living peacefully with those who hold different views from us.  We should not allow our society to degenerate and  succumb to strange and untested values of rebelliousness, non-cooperation and belligerence.

Mr Speaker, I wish to appeal to the people of KwaZulu-Natal to go all out to save our communities from decay.  Possession of illegal arms, abuse of drugs, car hijacks, burglaries, fraud, immorality, should all win nobody from among ourselves and our children.  The struggle for democracy has been very costly in terms of loss of human lives, property and pain.  The worst costs have been in terms of shattered family life and the erosion of norms, values and standards of decency in our communities.

Reparation cannot be in monetary terms only, but should go beyond to rebuild our communities and restore parental authority within the family and the home.  

As a province we face serious fiscal and budgetary constraints.  It would help if provincial assets such as forests, water and fisheries could contribute to our revenue as a Province.

We need additional revenue to deliver development and improve economic activity in our rural areas.  We need to empower ~Amakhosi~ to lead rural development.  For this we need trucks, graders, water and electricity in rural areas.  We need to extend clerical and administrative services to our rural courts and welfare offices.

All this requires additional resources.  We need to budget adequately for the House of Traditional Leaders.  We will continue to fight for a meaningful role for ~Amakhosi~ in Local Government Structures.  We will also work tirelessly for the reinstatement of the Kingdom of KwaZulu.  ~Amakhosi~ have, therefore, a major role to play as part of our provincial government in planning effective rural development programmes and projects.  

Very importantly, Mr Speaker, is to remember that culture is bigger than politics.  Our actions in society have to fit within the context of culture.  Should there be a deliberate violation of a peoples' cultural base, be that in the name of democracy or modernity, then there is an unintended untenable situation.  All I am emphasising, Mr Speaker, is that through our behaviour or negligence, we should not undermine peoples' cultures when we run a modern state: stability in our communities and indeed the very productivity of labour which we sorely need is underpinned and sustained by the sense of belonging and identity which is a function of our diverse cultures.

Mr Speaker, I am very glad that His Majesty touched upon the fact of the misappropriation of government funds by some government officials who are in fact earning very high salaries.  More especially, the elderly peoples' funds are being misappropriated by these people who indulge themselves in criminal activities.

I am particularly glad, Mr Speaker, that the Minister of Welfare, Prince G L Zulu, has done wonderful work in tracing these criminals with the result that many have already been arrested.  

Mr Speaker, I do not want to think about the misappropriation of government funds and monies intended for pensions.  In addition, there are people who cross the borders from Swaziland, Lesotho, Mozambique and Eastern Cape who come and draw money from us.  I am shocked by the lack of shame on the part of these incorrigible fraudsters, who use the passports from the countries from which they come and earn pension monies here which they are not supposed to earn.

I appeal, Mr Speaker, sir, for help or assistance from the Department of Foreign Affairs, and also from the Department of Safety and Security, because their assistance in this regard is very important and we cannot do without it.  

The appeal by His Majesty and his comment to the effect that communities should also assist is very important.  I am grateful therefor because without such help and co-operation forthcoming we cannot effectively apprehend these criminals.

His Majesty also touched on a very important issue, that is, the issue of government monies or revenue.  It is a very important one indeed, and we appeal to all government officials to exercise constraint whether it be it in the use of telephones, be it in the use of vehicles, the time for injudicious expenditure is now over.

The question of a proper work ethic seems to have almost totally escaped our present youth, especially the young people in the range of 19 to 24 years.  We need to commit ourselves to a deeper work ethic than we have done so far.  This means that pupils, students and teachers must rededicate themselves to a culture of learning and teaching.  Our workers need to realise that they are partners with employers and government in growing the economy so that the benefits of a strong economy also result in the welfare of all our people.

Our Good Governance Programme issues newsletters, conducts workshops, and explores ways of making the young people want to work hard and to feel fulfilled when this is done.

Before I conclude, Mr Speaker, I would like to touch on the issue of the expiry of contracts of temporary educators from 31 March 1998.  This is a matter of public importance and public interest.  

When the provinces started running into difficulties of overspending, particularly in Education, it was the National Ministry of Education and Finance that suggested ways and means to cut expenditure.  It was decided therefore to recommend to provinces that if they were serious about cutting over-expenditure they should not renew the contracts of temporary teachers.  Those are the teachers who had been employed after 1 July 1996.  These contracts were expiring at the end of December 1997, and it would have meant that when schools reopened the temporary teachers would no longer return to classes.  All the other provinces obliged and did not renew or extend these contracts after 31 December 1997.

I told the Budget Council that it was impossible for KwaZulu-Natal not to extend these contracts to at least 31 March 1998.  I stated that our situation in KwaZulu-Natal was highly complex because most of our rural schools, and some of our urban schools, were highly dependent on temporary teachers.  

Last month, when we were finalising the budgets, I came under very severe attack in the Budget Council from Gauteng.  They said if the Minister of Finance acceded to our request for additional funds, he would be rewarding inefficiency and failure because we had not complied with the cut-off date of 31 December.  

We have not been able to get the amounts that we asked for, although we shall be getting a sizeable sum to redeem our deficit.  However, with the beginning of the new financial year it will be impossible to extend these contracts beyond 31 March.  

I would like also to remind this hon House that when it comes to per capita funding for every school child, KwaZulu-Natal gets only about a quarter of what the Western Cape gets, and gets only a third of what Gauteng gets.  These are issues that we are addressing relentlessly in the National Budget Council as well as in the Treasury Council at National level.  Also, the Financial and Fiscal Commission has pledged to re-look the formula for the allocation of funding so that the funding base can be corrected.  

The Department of Education has prepared a plan which will be in operation from 1 April 1998 to assist schools which are badly affected by loss of staff.  A bilateral meeting between employer and employee parties to the KwaZulu-Natal Chamber of the Education Labour Relations Council takes place tomorrow, and it is hoped that teacher unions will assist in an operation to ensure that schools continue to function.  

Staff in schools will not be reduced below the interim guidelines as proposed by the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education of ratios of 1:35 in secondary schools and 1:40 in primary schools.  Chief directors in our education regions are busy right now dealing with the issue of staffing.  I would request the people of KwaZulu-Natal to approach this education issue with the sensitivity and responsibility it deserves.

I do not believe that the situation is as dire as it is made out to be by some activists who want to seize on this issue to disrupt education in KwaZulu-Natal.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, may I thank His Majesty for the variety of issues he has raised this morning, issues that touch all aspects of our life in the Province.  I would like to assure His Majesty of our unshakeable loyalty to the Kingdom and to our Royal Family.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  In terms of the Order Paper His Majesty now leaves the House.  We shall all rise.

HON MEMBERS PRESENT GIVE HIS MAJESTY, THE KING, THE ROYAL GREETING.

HIS MAJESTY, THE KING, LEAVES THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.

The announcement that I have is a request.  I would like to see the Chief Whip, Mr Powell and Mrs Gasa in my office after this.  This is my announcement.

Mr Secretary, please.

THE SECRETARY:  I would like to remind our guests that it is only those who have cards who will proceed to where we will be having lunch.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  In terms of the Order Paper may I call upon the Premier to make such announcements as he may have.

THE PREMIER:  No announcements, Mr Speaker, other than to thank the people who have travelled long distances to join with us in this opening ceremony.  May you continue to take a keen interest in the affairs of your government in the Province.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  The House adjourns until 11 a.m. tomorrow.  Before we adjourn, yes, Mr Bartlett.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, I think you announced that only people who have cards will be allowed to the lunch.  I would like to ask a question, sir.  Are all the members of Parliament invited to lunch?   If so, sir, not all members have received cards.  I just thought I would mention it, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Secretary, before we adjourn can you enlighten us on that issue?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, order, please.  Order, please.  Order, order.  The question by Mr Bartlett, will the Secretary please advise.

THE SECRETARY:  I believe the cards were distributed to the members.  For those who did not receive them we will show them where they will be sitting.  

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The House adjourns until tomorrow morning at 11 a.m.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Please, let us get this issue clear.  The session is on until the Speaker leaves the Chamber.  Thank you.  

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 13:30 UNTIL
	11:00 ON WEDNESDAY, 18 MARCH 1998

DEBATES AND  PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	FIRST SITTING - SECOND SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 18 MARCH 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 11:13 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ~ULUNDI~.   THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  Yes, Mrs Downs.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, there are members of the gallery that are using cellphones and talking, and they did so during the prayers.  I find it particularly offensive that they did not respect the Rules of this House.  I would ask you, sir, to ask them to respect them.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!:

THE SPEAKER:  I hope the message has got to their ears as well as their heads so that we will have less of that trouble.  It will not be necessary for me to repeat what you have already said, and for that I thank you.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

THE SPEAKER:  It is with regret, that I have to announce the passing away of our Sergeant-at-Arms.  A few months ago we buried him.  He was not well and he passed away.  For that I would request the House to stand in honour of him.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS STAND

THE SPEAKER:  May his soul rest in peace.  Amen.

3.  ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, it has become custom, I had understood, for at least a reporting of members who were sworn in during the period between the last sitting of the House and the present one, persons who were sworn in by yourself in your office, to at least have those reported so that they can be included in the Minutes of the House.  That may be possible now, I hope.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much for that, Mr Burrows.  I do not have the list ready here, but I can assure you that I will make good that omission.  It may not be now.  It may not be on the Order Paper.  I will make good that omission.  Thank you very much for pointing that out.

4.  ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  The announcement I have is that members of the Assembly will be given Zulu Bibles at some stage or another.  I have the people here to do that.  We decided that we will adjourn probably at one and then those Bibles will be handed out.  I suppose a few words will be said by the people who are giving us the Bibles.  I am sorry for those who do not understand or read Zulu, but there it is.  For good matters, good approach and being good parliamentarians, those Bibles will stand in good stead.  That is the announcement I make at the present moment.  
So after lunch as we adjourn there will be this ceremony, if you like, when we will hand out those Zulu Bibles.  They are not restricted only to those who can speak Zulu, but those who care to have a Zulu Bible may take it.  It just happened that some people might want a Zulu Bible even if they are not Zulu speaking.  I read most of my Bibles in English, but be assured I am not English, nor desire to be English either.

5.  ANNOUNCEMENTS AND REPORT BY THE PREMIER

The hon the Premier.

THE PREMIER:  I have no announcements, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

6.  TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to table the report of the Auditor-General on the performance audit for the provisions of buildings and structures completed at the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration Department of Works during September 1997.  

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  We have got it here.  The Minister of Agriculture, the hon Mr Singh.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr Speaker, thank you very much.  I have pleasure in tabling the report of the Department of Agriculture, KwaZulu-Natal, for the period, 1 January 1997 to 31 December 1997.  The report is being tabled in both English and isiZulu and I trust this report will inform members so that when my budget speech is presented to Parliament sometime later this year they will participate on an informed basis.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Singh.  One step ahead.  We prefer reports in Zulu as well.  We are accustomed to it only being made in English.  One step forward.  The hon Minister of Transport.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, the Department of Transport has made arrangements that the members of this Legislature should be able to get the new credit card type drivers licences.  The photographer is outside.  It costs R10 if there are two of you, R20 if you want to go alone, and then the credit card type licence is R75.  You fill in the forms today.  We will make every attempt to have the licences by Friday.

THE SPEAKER:  May I enquire from the Minister when does he think this could be done?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  The photographer is outside and the forms are outside.  So it should be done, all of it today if we are going to be able to process the forms so that the licences are delivered here on Friday.  So I ask the members to avail themselves of the facilities that are outside right now.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Including the Speaker, but I will earnestly ask that it must only be those members with valid drivers licences.  [LAUGHTER]  It does not matter whether it is inside or outside the ID, but as long as you know it is valid.

MR R M BURROWS:  Have you asked the Deputy Speaker?

THE SPEAKER:  I will not go to Mr Burrows.  I will use the Deputy Speaker.  Our Deputy Speaker has a full licence and there is no question of driving without a licence.  That is for sure for my Deputy Speaker.  

Any further comments, please?  We proceed therefore.

7.  NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to give notice of the following motion.

	That this House expresses its deep condolences with the relatives and the community that suffered the tragic loss of 9 children who drowned in the Black ~Umfolosi~ River.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I have a second motion of which I would like to give notice on behalf of the hon Mr Haygarth who is still at a meeting of the Safety and Security Committee.  He asked me to give notice of the following motion.

	That this House, noting the difficulties experienced by Local Government in the collection of local revenues, instructs the Minister of Local Government and Housing to amend the present Local Authorities Ordinance or a Transitional Proclamation in conjunction with MINMEC to give more effective collection procedures to local authorities.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  The Minister of Education.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, I stand up to correct the number of the children that drowned in the Black ~Umfolosi~.  The number was finally ascertained to be 9.

THE SPEAKER:  I am sure the hon member will accordingly amend his motion to be in compliance as the Minister of Education as pointed out.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House having recognised the fact that the fiscus is unable to provide sufficient funds in order to bring about equity in Education at a time when the people cannot continue accommodating an unacceptable situation whereby many of our Province's schools have no water, toilets and other services such as books, etcetera.  Praises the efforts of the Provincial Government to establish a Provincial Education Trust and also calls upon the hon Premier and the hon Minister of Education and Culture to strengthen the partnership between public and private enterprise at local levels to further promote equal education and also to request the hon Premier to consider determining a policy decision to give preference for Bingo licences to Local Education Trusts.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Who shall I say came first?  Mr Dlamini or.....

AN HON MEMBER:  In order of seniority.

THE SPEAKER:  Good Lord, I do not know about that.  [LAUGHTER]  You have the floor, sir.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, I move this motion.

	That in the light of our new democracy and constitutional provision that Ministers who form the executives of Government, should be present and be accountable at all times when required to do so in relevant debates involving their Portfolios; that the recent example of Ministers being absent from the National Council of Provinces be noted, that such Ministers were not accountable in the appropriation debate to answer questions on the budget;

	that the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces be complimented for the stand that he took in demanding discipline and in postponing the sitting until such time that Ministers are present and accountable; such absenteeism by Ministers at the National Council of Provinces severely impacts on the decision makers who in turn represent the provinces and it is equally incumbent upon our own provincial structures to take the cue from the demands set by the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I think Mr Dlamini you had something to move, yes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move as follows:

	That this House:

	1.	noting the unabated corruption going on in social grants payments;

	2.	noting the statement made by the Deputy Director-General of Social Welfare and Population Development that registration of all social security beneficiaries will start soon;

	3.	noting further that agreement on re-registration was reached by MINMEC about six months ago;

	4.	believing that re-registration will eliminate all fraudsters without fear or favour;

	Therefore resolves that:

	the Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development speed up the process in order to save millions of rands for this Province; and

	the people selected to do re-registration should be extremely trustworthy to avoid inclusion of perpetrators of corruption; and

	the Portfolio Committee on Welfare and Population Development be mandated by this House to oversee the process of re-registration.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Dlamini.  Yes.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am standing only to support the motion raised by Mr Volker on the fate that befell the 9 children who drowned.  As the ANC we support that motion.  

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for supporting it, although you did not need to.  Yes, Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the IFP would also be very happy to associate itself with that motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I also have a motion which I wish to move.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I wish to move a motion without notice in terms of Rule 104(d).  The motion is as follows:

	That item 8.3 on the Order Paper be referred to the Portfolio Committee on Transport and such Committee to consider whether the Bill is properly before the House and whether the Bill be proceeded with.

	Further the Committee to meet immediately after the House adjourns for lunch in the Mnyamana Room and report back when the House resumes.  

If the Committee is satisfied on the foregoing the Bill be proceeded with.  Mr Speaker, I request that you put that matter to the House.  

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  My only concern is that it does not clash with the people of the Bibles which I had hoped as soon as we adjourn they would have their do, but that does not preclude what you are now saying.  You have put the motion and that will be put to the House.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I have no problem in supporting that motion, but I think the time may present some difficulty because there are other......

THE SPEAKER:  I do not hear Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  If the hon Chief Whip of the majority party could suggest that the members of the Portfolio Committee could leave at a particular time before the adjournment for lunch because if there are problems it may take longer.  We want to pass this Bill during this session.

THE SPEAKER:  Would the Chief Whip please respond?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, we would be quite prepared to accept any time that is suitable to members of the Committee.  By suggesting that time I was merely trying to ensure that it happened.  I am informed by the Minister it is an extremely important Bill.  So we do need to deal with it before 2 o'clock today, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  I would rather leave it to you, Chief Whip, and the Whips of the minority parties to sort it all out, please.  Yes, Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the ANC will support the motion, although we are of the firm opinion that this Bill is correctly before the House and that all the procedural requirements have been complied with.  But if there are parties who need to think about it a little bit longer, then we will not stand in the way of the Committee meeting again.  We will be present at the Committee meeting.

I would just like to point out that members of the public are here to come and listen to the Bill, and I would agree with the hon Chief Whip that the Committee meeting has to be finalised before 2 o'clock.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, there are two motions before the House, as I understand it.  The first by Mr Volker offering condolences for the terrible loss of the 9 children.  The Democratic Party would wish to be identified with that motion and we trust that you will be able to put that to the House.

The second one, we would agree with the motion of the hon Chief Whip of the IFP.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I must give a chance to the member of the National Party.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, as far as the motion proposed by the hon Mr Tarr, the National Party would support that.  We do not believe there has been sufficient agreement within that Portfolio Committee.  However, I believe to allow members to leave the House during the Premier's address would not be polite to him and I do not believe that should happen.  I would suggest that the members give up their lunch period to make sure this Bill can come before the House.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I think Mr Rajbansi was standing up.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The Minority Front supports the motion of Mr Volker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, the African Christian Democratic Party.

MRS J M DOWNS:  The ACDP would like to support Mr Volker's motion.  We also support Mr Tarr's motion that we make a time to debate and look at the Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I hope you received the motion.  I have not got it here.  The messengers have not delivered it to me, nor has the hon Whip done so.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I will table it with the Secretary right now.

THE SPEAKER:  That having been done, no further motions.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1  QUESTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I get your permission to raise a matter on 8.1?  I sent in four questions, two for oral, two for written, and they are not on the Order Paper.  I am a very dedicated MP and I am concerned about this.  I do not know whether it went on cross fax, or whatever it is, but I did send it.

THE SPEAKER:  I think we leave it at that.  I will go into the matter with my Secretary and we can see to that.  In the meantime, we will continue with the questions as set out in the Order Paper.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I do not recall that the motions have actually been put to the House.  I wonder if you could perhaps put the motion without notice and also the motion on the children who were drowned.

THE SPEAKER:  I do not have any further motions so I will blindly, as it were, put the motions to the House.  

	MOTION:

		That this House expresses its deep condolences with the relatives and the community that suffered the tragic loss of 9 children who drowned in the Black ~Umfolosi~ River.

MOTION AS MOVED BY MR VOLKER - PASSED

THE SPEAKER:  The other, the second.

	MOTION:

		That item 8.3 on the Order Paper be referred to the Portfolio Committee on Transport and such Committee to consider whether the Bill is properly before the House and whether the Bill be proceeded with.

		Further the Committee to meet immediately after the House adjourns for lunch and report back when the House resumes.  

MOTION AS MOVED BY MR TARR - PASSED

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  That has been done, Mr Chief Whip, to your satisfaction, I hope.  

8.1  QUESTIONS

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS WILL BE PUBLISHED IN A ALTER VOLUME


THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  It is now a few minutes before the adjournment.  I am afraid that is as far as we can go with the questions.  We will adjourn now.  We will resume at 2 p.m. this afternoon.  

It is a pity the Chief Whip of the IFP is not here.  I would have liked to see him.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Do you recall when the Chief Whip suggested a time, I went to the meeting.  They changed the time to twenty to one, and now they have changed it to quarter to two.  So I was correct in suggesting a different time.  They keep on chopping and changing it.  They regard this Parliament as a place where you play marbles.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  I wish the Chief Whip was here to hear you say that.  At the present moment the House will adjourn till 2 p.m. this afternoon.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12:58
	RESUMED AT 14:28

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  

The first announcement I have to make is to draw the attention of the members, and, indeed, including that of the public, cellular phones are not permitted in the Chamber.  People who engage in that sort of thing are acting contrary to the Rules and regulations of this Chamber.  We do not desire to have acrimonious relations with anybody.  It will be therefore our pleasure so say let everybody refrain from that.  That is enough.

I notice that the Minister of Finance has not turned up because this would be his time to deliver his long-awaited address.

8.2	STATE OF THE PROVINCE ADDRESS BY THE PREMIER. 

THE SPEAKER:  The hon, the Premier.

THE PREMIER:  I beg your indulgence, Mr Speaker, I had to give a statement to the press regarding the Bible ceremony which took place earlier.

Mr Speaker, members of the Cabinet and hon members, we face a most challenging year.  As a government, the financial constraints on the Province, will impose on us new issues and concerns.  

Before we deal with some of these concerns, let me state quite unambiguously that there are numerous positive dimensions to our Province which should not be overlooked.  We tend to focus on the negative issues.  Meanwhile many of our departments are delivering social services and infrastructures.  A large portion of our civil service and Provincial workforce is honest, dedicated and hardworking.  Numerous exciting economic initiatives are being pursued and the KwaZulu-Natal region has numerous intrinsic features and strengths which allows us to take this Province forward.  We should not allow ourselves to be overwhelmed by the very real difficulties that we do face.  Rather, we should recognise our obstacles and deal with them in a confident manner.  Mr Speaker, it is precisely because we are aware of the constraints that we face, that we are able to confront those constraints.  We can analyse them and produce solutions.  We may not be able to create money or solve our capacity problems overnight, but we have at our disposal the most important asset available to us, namely the people and community of this Province.  

Mr Speaker, the current situation makes us realise that we need each other.  If we combined the knowledge, experience and resources of this Province, if we realise that we are dependent upon one another to succeed and make this Province a model of society, we can surely succeed.  Government, business, labour, our communities and individuals all live and work in this Province in a mutually inter-dependent fashion.  Notwithstanding our opinions about each other, we are all part of the same economic and social system.  The one cannot do without the other.  We each have a role.  What is important is that we must translate our individual short and long-term perspectives into a common long term perspective.  To pursue our agreed Vision for the Province, we must each gain a true understanding of each other's needs, requirements and difficulties and pursue the long term benefit and the type of society we all would like to see in this Province.  I reiterate therefore that I believe that we can overcome the current negative aspects of our situation by building on the positive ones.  

Mr Speaker, today I am going to address only a few of the more crucial issues that face us.  I will attend briefly to some activities of departments.  As they will be presenting their budgets to this Parliament, all of us will have the opportunity to understand more comprehensively what each department is busy with.  

Perhaps the key constraint facing us at this time, is the cash flow situation of the Provincial Government.  This impacts on the demands for services that cannot adequately be met from the available revenue of the Province.  During the mentioned debates on individual departmental budgets, the members will hear more of how this impacts on each department.  In my Budget Speech on Friday, I will go into this matter more thoroughly.  Although our financial situation is of grave concern, it presents us with some opportunities.  The most important question facing us is how are we going to deal with the shortage of funds?  

Mr Speaker and colleagues, there is no doubt that we will have to cut back on certain of our current services to be able to fund other services.  As a Government, we will have to reprioritise our Programmes and review the efficiency and effectiveness of current operations.  Where necessary, we will be forced to take some more unpopular decisions if that is what is required to achieve objectives of greater priority.

Our Programme for Good Governance envisaged phases commonly known as Strategic Restructuring and Government Re-engineering.   We will have to start, as a matter of urgency, the process of moving towards a Government that takes due responsibility for the making of policy, being a catalyst and facilitator, but seeks alternative methods of delivering services.  We need to start to separate the policy-making issues from the doing issues.  As a Government, we are often, by definition, poorly equipped for the business of doing.  Around the world, governments have started to use government owned agencies: government-owned companies, the private sector and partnerships to deliver services.  The key factor is to ensure that where there is an area of clear responsibility of the Government, that we do not compromise that responsibility.  Alternative service delivery options must be investigated with a view to achieving greater efficiency, and to assist in decreasing costs.

This process would require that we start with a serious re-look at the current organisation of the Provincial Government, as well as the functioning of existing departments.  We would then pursue the identification of components that could become candidates for alternative service delivery models.  I have already instructed the team responsible for the Programme for Good Governance to develop a macro-organisational model that could facilitate this process.  While the opportunities presented by this approach may be exciting, I do not wish to raise undue expectations.  We would have to have due regard for the legal considerations and personnel and other resource issues inherent in such processes.  Personnel measures and the ability to deal with serving personnel in an appropriate manner is often the most limiting obstacle in achieving these objectives.  We will however ensure that we remain within the law and that we engage with the labour unions in a pro-active manner regarding these issues.  I will interact fully with the Cabinet as far as any aspects of re-organisation and new macro-governmental models are concerned.

Mr Speaker, although I touched on this matter yesterday, I wish to return to an aspect of real concern to me as a parent and as Premier.  That is the current situation we face with education.  The problem is a national one.  What is important is how we in this Province deal with the difficulties that our government experiences with the delivery of quality in education.  Mr Speaker, we must be honest with our citizens.  We cannot ascribe to desirable and positive initiatives to assist parents and small children by, for example, providing free health care for small children, but then disadvantage these same children when they come to receive their formal schooling.  Our priorities must be aligned, be rational and be practical.  We have consistently argued that the strength of the Province in these trying times lies in the capacity of the people of this Province.  Our people, combined with the natural resources of our Province, are what will make the difference.  In the future the strength of this Province will depend on the training and character of the children of today.  It is imperative that we take education very, very seriously.  Perhaps we should make education the first among equals of the priorities of our Province.  I commit myself to doing so.

Mr Speaker and colleagues let us agree today to make education for our  children the first among equals.  Let us agree today to start the process of establishing an educational environment in this Province that will become the envy of many.  Such a change does not come overnight, Mr Speaker, but certainly we can start a pro-active process in achieving this ideal.  I am to engage with my colleagues in Cabinet on how we can assist the Minister in this process.  I am indeed grateful in anticipation for the work to be done by Mr Burrows and the task team who are to investigate certain dimensions of education in this Province.  In the interim I believe that we should revisit organisational and structural matters in the Department with a view to optimising management capacity and resources within the limited budget available to the Department.  I am going to request my colleagues in the Cabinet to assist us in providing expertise from their departments to at least start assessing and dealing with certain basic management issues in the Department of Education and Culture.  Some of the aspects I have in mind are the following:  

	*	An assessment of the management information available to the Department and the quality of such information.  The IT section of the Department of Finance has expertise in this regard.

	*	A review of the budgets and an assessment of the financing of schools and their requirements.

	*	An assessment of the staffing requirements of schools, especially in the light of current initiatives whereby 5 000 teachers' contracts will not be renewed.

	*	An assessment of the current commitment and quality of educators at the different schools, based on certain obvious characteristics of the schools.

Mr Speaker, I wish to state emphatically to the people of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, that it is not a simple or easy matter to take a decision on the termination of the services of staff, especially an important category of staff such as educators.  The reality is that we were highly reluctant to take such a decision in this Province.  We realise the additional constraints that this places on many of our schools.  In truth, other provinces had already taken such decisions and I was criticised at a recent National Budget Council meeting for our reluctance in this matter.  At the end of the day, it comes down to the principle of affordability.   We simply cannot continue to employ these teachers who we can not afford to remunerate, it is a hard fact and a hard reality.  That in itself would have been a highly irresponsible course of action if we did continue when we did not have the resources to employ them.  I am sure that affordability is a concept that we all can relate to in our own personal budgets.  No matter how deep our desire to retain these educators, we simply could not.  We have had to take this decision notwithstanding the fact that during the next financial year we intend providing the Department of Education and Culture with additional financial resources at the expense of other departments and services.  More of this will become apparent in the Budget Speech on Friday.

Having taking this decision, Mr Speaker, we must ensure that the negative effect of this decision is minimised in every way possible.  I intend to personally familiarise myself with the implications of this decision.  The Department of Education and Culture has produced a management plan that I referred to yesterday.  The plan aims to ensure that education in individual schools is not totally compromised by the reduction of the educator staff complement.  It remains important for these schools to continue with their important task.  Although I have visited various schools in the recent times, to enable me to understand the issues facing them, I intend visiting certain schools in the next few weeks to determine first-hand how these latest decisions impact on their ability to function.  

I believe that our schools should provide the first step in providing all of our children with a meaningful future, which will benefit our communities, our Province and our country.  It is therefore important that we pay particular attention to those schools that provide for children with special learning needs.  These schools give these unique children a sporting chance in life by dealing with their special needs at an early age and enabling them to become fully integrated and better prepared for the adult environment in which they will be expected to function.  Consequently I will visit some of the schools that attend to these children.  I have already visited the V K Naicker School as well as the Mountain Rise School for the deaf and the blind as well.  I will then this time start with the Browns School for remedial children in Pinetown and the Vuleka School for the Hearing Impaired children at Nkandla.  

I believe that we will have to take education to our communities in a much more interactive manner.  Communities must own our education system.  They should become much more pro-active, interacting with their local schools to ensure that they get the quality services that their children deserve.  Parents should not interfere with the professional content of the curriculum or in classroom discipline, but parents are entitled to demand that teachers are present and on duty.  They are entitled to demand that schools apply sound management procedures and exercise proper financial discipline.  Parents are entitled to demand quality education for their children.  They can ensure that this is so in their local schools by getting involved.  Parents could gain a first-hand understanding of the constraints which face our schools and together with the local school boards and teaching staff devise innovative means of co-operation which ensure that they also contribute to a sound quality of education.  

By accepting the limitations faced by the Government and entering into a co-operative and understanding partnership with schools, parents could become a part of the positive changes in our provincial education system.  In a spirit of co-operation I appeal to parents of children in our more well off schools to understand the need for the Government to direct its activities towards those schools with the greater needs and requirements at this time.  I appeal also to our business community to get involved in local schools.  The principle of business enterprises adopting schools should be extended.  I hope that KwaZulu-Natal will respond to my appeal for understanding and my challenge for all of us to make education in this Province the first amongst equals.

Mr Speaker, having dealt with the importance and priority of establishing a reputable and enviable education environment in our Province, we must accord due recognition to the many other matters of extreme priority and importance in our Province.  On the economic side there are numerous and very positive initiatives.  I have been meeting on an ongoing basis with business leaders of the Province.  Although many of them expressed concern about some of the issues I raised in this speech, I am extremely encouraged by their commitment to our Province.  They can be assured of my support in trying to ensure that they have a suitable and viable business environment in which to operate.  I thank the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism for his efforts in this regard.

The Lubombo Spatial Development Initiative between South Africa, Mozambique and Swaziland is an example of the many positive economic initiatives which are of special significance and very exciting to us as a Province.  Provided that the Province is kept fully involved and is properly recognised in terms of our constitutional rights and obligations, I willingly participate in this initiative as a lead project that I personally endorse.

The Lubombo Spatial Development Initiative is an example of what can be achieved through co-operative action undertaken between governments.  We have been holding regular meetings with the National Government and the governments of Mozambique and Swaziland.  It is anticipated that this Spatial Development Initiative will assist especially the northern areas of our Province to receive the benefits of development in a unique part of the Province that has been developmentally lagging for many years.  High unemployment and great poverty prevails among the approximately 500 000 people who live in the Lubombo Region of our Province.  

It is believed that the Lubombo Spatial Development Initiative will contribute significantly in supplying this area with much needed infrastructure, such as roads, schools and clinics.  The Spatial Development Initiative will facilitate the creation of employment opportunities, whilst it will also ensure a process whereby the natural resources of the area will be protected to the benefit not only of the local communities, but all who appreciate the value and beauty of our natural environment.  The Spatial Development Initiative will unlock cultural, agricultural, tourism and other economic opportunities in the region.  I believe that the proposed declaration of the Greater St Lucia Wetland Park as a World Heritage Area will emphasise the unique nature of our Province and will contribute to the development of our Provincial assets in a positive manner from which we will all benefit.  This is especially true insofar as it works to the benefit of the local people. It is of critical importance that the development of institutional models take due cognisance of the role and responsibilities of the Province in these areas.  We cannot afford to let these important developments be compromised through the introduction of structures that do not adequately reflect the dynamics of the Region or the Province.  I am however confident that these matters are being handled in a comprehensive process, which will suitably accommodate Provincial interests in the whole process.

Mr Speaker, another dimension of importance to the Province, as with the rest of the country, is that of crime, safety and security.  The goal, although difficult to achieve in the most advanced nations of the world, is a crime free society.  In terms of such a perspective we must acknowledge that we still have a long way to go.  But we are making progress in some areas.  The gradual stabilisation of the socio-political environment made it possible for the policing focus during 1996/1997 to turn to the broader crime spectrum.  This has contributed to a visible reduction in certain crime categories.  

The South African Police Services have reported that the crime statistics of 1997, when compared to 1996 show a decrease of 3,3% in serious crimes in the Province.  The same trend was experienced in the priority crimes that showed a decrease of 2,8%.  Armed robberies of financial institutions decreased by 54% and, of course, with the sensation of the heists that have taken place, I presume many people would not believe this figure, but it is true.  Although the serious crimes and priority crimes indicated a decrease, it is of concern that crimes like armed robbery of cash-in-transit increased by 13,3%, armed robberies with firearms increased by 5,6%, and stock theft increased by 5,9%, while attacks on farms and smallholdings indicated an increase of 46,9%.  

Sadly, it is attacks on tourists such as the recent murder of two Swedish nationals, which has led to the perception that KwaZulu-Natal is unsafe for tourism.  Compared, for instance to the Western Cape or Gauteng, this perception is unfounded, especially when confronted by statistics and factual evidence obtainable from the South African Police Services.  Special structural and functional changes have been introduced to address the crime fighting capacity of the South African Police Services in KwaZulu-Natal.  Police co-ordinating structures are involving the farming community to address crime intelligence and rural safety.  Special taxi violence units have been created.  Since the early 1990s, a tourist protection unit was established to deal with all aspects regarding the protection of tourists.  This unit maintains a close liaison with other role players in the hospitality industry, and with approximately 40 members maximises police visibility through brightly coloured reflective clothing while on patrol on foot, on motorcycle and on bicycles.  A zero crime tolerance initiative applies in the Durban area, focused on eradicating all petty offences.  A multi task force approach is employed by border policing units.  This includes pepped-up security at airports, (including drug squad, dog unit, receiver of revenue services, internal affairs, customs and excise), and additional manpower is deployed at border posts to address the issue of illegal aliens.  Specific task teams have been formulated to deal with certain specialist crime areas, such as banking and finance crimes.  To curb vehicle theft and hijacking a highway patrol unit has been established.  In this regard we are thankful to the business community for the donation of those excellent vehicles, the BMWs.  
The South African Police Services, as a part of the drive to transform and improve service delivery, has engaged on a Service Delivery Improvement Programme.  Through this programme, the Belgium Government assists the South African Police Services in streamlining internal process and procedures at selected police stations so as to improve service delivery.  The intention is to create sustainable capacity to maintain efficient and effective service delivery.  To date 40 stations were involved and a further 45 are to be introduced to the programme in 1998.  The objective is to introduce 100 stations to this programme.  Other programmes aimed at upgrading the current level of policing and creating a favourable environment in which to provide a high quality service are also being pursued.

The South African Police Services has for sometime been involved in establishing community safety centres.  The police combined forces with the Department of Correctional Services, Justice, Health and Welfare in these projects.  An amount of R15m has been allocated for this purpose.  It is intended to commence the construction of such centres on 1 April 1998.  Community safety centres are currently planned in Umbumbulu, Impendle, Emmaus and Polela.  New police stations are also planned for ~Nkumbanyuswa~ in the ~Ndwedwe~ area, ~Maqumbi~ in ~Mapumulo~, ~Nsuze~ and ~Hlanzeni~ in the Midlands, and ~Obizo~ in the ~Empangeni~ area.

Business Against Crime has also become a notable feature of our society.  It has become a respected voice to be heard in the fight against crime.

Mr Speaker, it would however be wrong to expect the business community to become responsible for the capacity problems in our police forces.  In the fight against crime, we need the support of the local people.  Safety and security is also an issue which requires a cooperative partnership between the professional crime fighters, namely, the police, those with capacity, resources and organisational expertise, namely, the business community, and those who are affected by crime, namely, our people, communities and neighbourhoods.  Mr Speaker, unless local communities accept co-responsibility for public safety, I want to predict that it will be very difficult for our policing structures to overcome the problem.  We cannot simply wait for the professional police structures to deal with the problem and to eliminate it.  That is to perpetuate a system of dependency.  We should instead allow our police structures to become catalysts in assisting our communities to become empowered and with the assistance of the police, to deal with the elimination of crime in our own backyards.  We who live in the neighbourhoods are best placed to understand the dimensions of crime and threats to our safety.  We want to establish strong communities where the police establish warm and functional relationships with local leaders, churches, businesses and schools.  These relationships will enable us to deal with the issue of crime and safety in a manner which uniquely addresses the concerns of each of the neighbourhoods in which we live.  Let us take the fight against crime to our local neighbourhoods where crime and transgression against fellow human beings are just not tolerated.  Let us start to protect each other and thereby protect ourselves.  I am not for one moment suggesting that communities take the law into their own hands, but by using the professional expertise of the police to back us up in these circumstances, I believe we can win over those who perpetrate crime.  I do not believe the throwing of yet more policemen at the problem will resolve the crime situation here or anywhere else in the country, although I must add, that I will be very happy, and I think most of us will be, when the South African Police Services absorb more young people, the many school leavers who finish matric and find no jobs, into police training so that we can have policemen on the beat, young, agile, energetic young women and men, to chase after those criminals.  We must become involved as neighbourhoods and communities to establish a culture and a way of life that does not tolerate crime in our own neighbourhoods and work environment.

For this approach to be successful, a precondition is that our people must have faith in the police.  There is a perception that there is a large criminal element to be found even in our policing structures.  This discredits those policemen who are hard-working men and women.  Communities need to ensure that local police authorities are accountable to them.  It will be appropriate for community policing systems to allow for the local police structures to report on crime and success rates to their neighbourhoods on a regular basis.  The local people are aware of the crime tendencies in their own areas and would quickly hold police structures that are ineffective accountable for their ineffectiveness, where this is true.

A provincial summit on the national crime prevention strategy was held in the Province during November 1997.  This summit resulted in the establishment of the KwaZulu-Natal crime prevention committee mandated to correlate all proposals into a programme of action.  This was followed by a summit on the reduction of crime and promotion of tourism and investment in KwaZulu-Natal on 6 March 1998.  I am confident that with the establishment of these partnerships that crime will be further reduced, but let us take these initiatives even further into our own neighbourhoods.  The recent success of the Sekusile Youth anti-crime campaign, (which was a one month programme aimed at bringing youth to an awareness about the possible dangers of crime), has paved a way for a programme that must involve all communities, and especially the youth, to become partners in the fight against crime.  The KwaZulu-Natal crime safety project will begin to educate communities about the causes, consequences and effects of crime to our society and also solutions to the issue of crime.  The project will be known and published as the Mayibuye KwaZulu-Natal Crime Safety Programme.  The programme is aimed at reclaiming the Province from criminal activities currently surrounding it.  We need to go further than merely educating communities, but they should become involved in pro-active initiatives against crime.

Within Government we are dealing very pro-actively with corruption and fraud.  We have established the toll-free Anti-Corruption Line.  This has been tremendously successful and we have had significant successes.  Recently I announced that we have secured 127 convictions in court from cases successfully prosecuted.  It is however time that we take this initiative into the next phase.  We are currently dealing with additional initiatives to take the Anti-Fraud and Anti-Corruption campaign to the next phase.  As soon as further details are available I will make suitable announcements.

Mr Speaker, unfortunately time does not allow me to deal with all the activities of the Province in great detail.  I have addressed a couple of matters of great importance rather extensively.  Each debate on the votes of departments will produce more extensive debate on their activities.  I can however highlight a few of the many initiatives that are currently being undertaken by certain departments.

The Department of Social Welfare is to engage in the re-registration of social beneficiaries, (pensioners).  More than 600 000 beneficiaries of social pensions are involved.  The aim of this exercise is to clean up the social system of what can be regarded as illegitimate pension earners.  It is envisaged that this will make a saving of between 5% to 8% of the social benefit bulge.  It is trusted that by 1 June 1998 re-registration will commence in all the three social welfare regions of KwaZulu-Natal.  On 1 April 1998 the Department will change from the traditional maintenance grants to the new form of grant called the "child support grant".  The child support grant will hopefully benefit more persons than the maintenance grant.  The release of the youths from prison in terms of the new correctional services legislation, has forced the Department to make extensive preparations.  These include the preparing of secure places of care to accommodate the released youths and the retraining of social welfare officers to deal with the new circumstances.  

The Department of Works is in the process of winding down its major capital works programme for the various clients.  Apart from the new Durban Academic Hospital, there are very few new buildings being built.  The clinic building programme has completed 82 clinics projects over the last two years, and 936 classrooms have been built.  For the national public works programme, R33m has been spent on community projects through the Province.

In Local Government the coming year promises to be of particular significance in the sense that it will mark a new era in the relationship between this Government and Local Government.  With the National White Paper on Local Government nearing completion, and, of course, it has been published now, it is evident that the National Government is intent on securing direct control over local government.  Provincial competencies in respect of local government have been reduced to that of "support, monitoring and capacity building".  However, the success of this Province depends largely on the success of its municipalities.  It is for this reason that the Department of Local  Government and Housing has embarked upon a number of municipal support programmes.  It is for this reason that I have called on my colleagues in Local Government that we create a Provincial inter-governmental forum where we, as Cabinet Ministers and as members of Parliament and Portfolio Committees, can interact very closely with the civic structures at the local government level so that we can have a common purpose, devise common strategies and, where possible, share our budgets.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  The social empowerment function, which may be seen as vital to the creation of a stable, peaceful and self-sufficient community in our Province, is in the process of being devolved to local level and most municipalities are currently supported in the preparation of their local development plans.  Regional councils are also supported to assume their operational and service providing functions in the non-TLC areas, while the provision of bulk water and electricity is being transferred to the Department of Water Affairs, and Eskom, respectively.

The KwaZulu-Natal Province has been leading most other provinces in the field of development planning, being the first Province to have completed its Provincial Growth and Development Strategy and its spatial framework, it has also made huge strides in the implementation of these strategies.  During this session of Parliament, KwaZulu-Natal will become the first Province to pass its own Planning and Development Act.  This legislation will rationalise the current fragmented planning and development of a legal framework, and will bring together planning and development in the entire Province under one law.  We will also, during this session of Parliament, have to consider nominations for appointment to the development tribunal and appeals tribunal as the final steps towards implementing the Development Facilitation Act in this Province.  The newly created legal framework will equip this Province to become more of a facilitator in the development process, and we may look forward to a more streamlined and user friendly development application process.  We have also made good progress with, and in fact, will finalise this year a provincial policy and White Paper on Rural Development.  This White Paper will give direction to the improvement of the quality of life of nearly half the population of this Province.

KwaZulu-Natal is well on the way to spend fully the allocated budget of R815m for the year ending March 1998, making it one of the best performances in the country, especially if one takes into account that most of the other provinces will be unable to achieve their targets.  Housing schemes, a relic of the previous dispensation, are in the process of being finalised, and should be wound up during 1998/1999.  New projects or subsidy expenditure has grown from R208m in 1996/1997 to R476m in 1997/1998, and is projected to continue at this growth rate in future years.  Unfortunately, we will not achieve our goal of delivering 195 000 houses by 1999.  This is due to financial and fiscal constraints at National level.  Having regard to the funding constraints that are being imposed by national housing, as well as the possible detrimental effect this could have on new development in the Province, the Department is designing a business plan which will include all stakeholders, address key problem areas and constraints in order to manage a process that will strive to ensure that housing delivery targets are achieved in the most suitable manner.

The Department of Finance has negotiated a new banking contract with ABSA Bank, which will take effect on 1 April 1998.  The Department is busy with a programme of intensive training involving financial role-players in all provincial departments in an attempt to enhance financial management schemes.  The implementation of the biometric access system will ensure strict control over the generation of payments on the financial management system throughout the Administration.  Implementation is progressing according to plan.  This system is expected to have a considerable impact on the prevention of fraudulent activities.  

Mr Speaker, the Department of Agriculture is busy with various exciting initiatives.  Special emphasis is placed on small-scale farmers and the upliftment of rural communities.  The Department has identified food security projects as a priority.  In fact, I was very happy when I read the report from the Department of Health, stating that with the prevalence of 25% of malnutrition in children under seven, KwaZulu-Natal was the lowest on the malnutrition index.  This obviously means that we are doing certain things correctly.  We are ensuring food security for our children.  Over the past year 105 703 contracts with the rural and agricultural communities, involving 22 909 groups of up to 30 people were made.  My Minister of Agriculture launched various projects involving entrant farmers.  These include projects such as the cashew nut grower project in Ubombo where 600 farmers and their families will be settled.  He also launched the Indumu, an irrigation project, where 104 farming families will settle.  Minister Singh launched the St Michaels irrigation scheme in the Vulamehlo District that will benefit 85 farming families.  It is the intention to build on the success of projects such as these and to develop many such food security projects in the future.

Minister Singh has taken a special interest in home industries.  As part of his ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign he has bought sewing machines, over-lockers and sewing kits with part of his RDP-discretionary fund.  These will be donated to some up-and-coming home industry clubs in need of development.  The Department also has a Programme to assist the disabled to start producing vegetables.  

He is also involved very much with urban agriculture whereby people can become very profitable small farmers supplying the needs of our townships and cities.  He has told me that hydroponics is going to be the future trajectory of urban agriculture, and I thank him for his energy.

Agricultural development is very important in KwaZulu-Natal.  Compared to the rest of South Africa, KwaZulu-Natal has a very favourable ratio of arable land to grazing land.  The Province accounts for over 90% of South Africa's sugar production, 46% of dairy products, 39% of confectionary production, and 25% of beverage production.  

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION

THE PREMIER:  Cane spirits, yes.  In total, some 16% - 20% of the Province's Geographic Gross Product is grounded on agricultural production.  It is important to note that the potential to increase agricultural output is phenomenal and is conservatively estimated to be 366% compared to the present production.  This means that agriculture has the potential to contribute far more towards the provincial GGP and also give far more people a livelihood.  The Department aims to realise this potential by the year 2020.  

The Department of Health has continued to render services under very difficult and trying conditions.  They serve KwaZulu-Natal with approximately 27 500 beds in some 60 state hospitals, 15 state-aided hospitals, 375 clinics and 162 mobile clinics.  The Department was the first to introduce free primary health care services, with 137 565 deliveries undertaken.  Nearly 44 000 out-patient consultations took place.  The Department is attending to its Primary Health Care policy and is providing more access to health care through the provision of clinics.  At the end of 1997, 137 clinics had been built or upgraded.  HIV/AIDS is a high priority area for the Department.  The Cabinet is actively involved in this initiative, and partakes in a Cabinet Initiative against AIDS.

Mr Speaker, we are also proceeding well with the Casino approval process for the Province.  25 firms have given notice of their participation in the bid for the five casino licences of the Province.  We hope to announce the preferred applicants by October 1998 and this will certainly contribute to our own sources of revenue since we are so cash-strapped.

Mr Speaker, I believe that the Department of Traditional Affairs and Environmental Affairs is making good progress with the amalgamation of the provincial conservation authorities.  The Department is also in the process of developing a provincial waste management policy and a report on the State of the Environment in KwaZulu-Natal.  We look forward to the results of these endeavours, and, of course, I have it from the Minister that he and his Deputy Director-General are working very hard to see to it that there is service delivery in our rural areas.

Mr Speaker, I am especially concerned with the development needs of our tribal authority areas.  We need to ensure that these areas benefit from our rural development programmes.  They need to benefit from small scale agricultural development projects that provide sustainable sources of income.  Development needs of the tribal authorities need to be addressed in a comprehensive manner.  They require planning expertise and must be supported with establishing suitable administrative and infrastructure capacity.  I am going to request the Department of Traditional and Environmental Affairs, together with other relevant departments, such as Agriculture, to study this matter and provide the Cabinet with a full report at the earliest possible time.

Having spoken my mind, Mr Speaker, on several issues of importance in the Province, it is time that I conclude my thoughts.  At this time I wish to take the opportunity to complement one of our local newspapers.  Without compromising their editorial integrity, the Mercury has chosen to acknowledge that, despite many difficulties, there is much to be positive about in this Province.  We commend them on the supplement entitled "The High Road".  It will appear for the first time on 25 March 1998.  We believe that this supplement will make a contribution towards informing the Provincial, National, and even international community about positive features of our Province.  My Department has estimated that it is much more cost effective to purchase run-ons of this supplement for distribution to governments and other communities with whom we interact than what it would be to publish our own external publication.

When I was in Los Angeles recently, Mr de Klerk, our Consul-General, bemoaned the fact that there was very little about KwaZulu-Natal in Los Angeles and California, and yet California is one of the giants as far as the American economy is concerned and there is tremendous interest in the culture as well as the possibilities for investment in this country.  

So I can tell the Mercury that the first copy I get I will ship off to the Ambassador in Los Angeles.

MR A RAJBANSI:  You can get an advance copy.

THE PREMIER:  Yes, you can arrange that, Raj.  

The supplement would be available on a monthly basis and would have the benefit of the independence of the formal newspaper industry in promoting positive aspects of the Province.  

Mr Speaker, this speech recognises some of the difficulties facing us as a Province.  We can choose to be overwhelmed by these difficulties, which is often natural, or we can choose to face these circumstances and deal with them.  Nobody else will look after our Province but ourselves.  It is important that we take the resources that we have, that we work together and make the most of our situation.  We do have a bright future in this Province.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  Of course, in a back-handed way I would like to complement our Public Accounts Portfolio Committee.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  Mr Tino Volker, Mr Edwards, and many others for the forthrightness, the transparency, as it is usually called.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Why have you left out Mike.  [LAUGHTER]

THE PREMIER:  And Dr Mike Sutcliffe and Mr Konigkramer, of course, on my side.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  And me.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Mabuyakhulu.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE PREMIER:  For the transparency with which they have dealt with our capacity problems and our management deficits.  Unless we are open with problems we cannot find solutions.  There are many, many provinces whose problems are not being put in the media, and those people are worse off than us because they still have to meet their reality.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, let us agree to work together for the benefit of our Province.  Let us agree to be bold and act with a view to the future.  Let us together create a Province to be proud of.  I do not suggest that we should compromise our individual opinions as political entities, but we should not act for short-term political gain.  Whilst we have an election looming one year from now, let us act as leaders and conduct ourselves in a manner which will make the community of KwaZulu-Natal proud of us.  Let us create a confidence in this Parliament and in the Government, notwithstanding divergent political points of view.  Whilst we may differ as parties and publicly state that, which is the strength of democracy, after all, let our differences of opinion inform the people, but let it not negatively impact on the perceptions of where KwaZulu-Natal as a Province is headed.  The people of KwaZulu-Natal must know that we their political leaders are truly here to create a better future for all of us.  Let us practice humility, and honesty.  Let us try to understand each other and let us make service to KwaZulu-Natal our priority.  

I told the managing director of Iscor, when I visited there, that I was going to adopt their slogan and put it at the borders with Free State and Gauteng, saying "Now you are entering Victory Country".  

Never before has it been so important as now to state ~sukumani~ ~siyephambili~ or "Let us arise and go forward".

I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!:  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Because it is you, I will say nothing.  It is not a tradition of this House to clap hands on any issue.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  However, as our Minister of Finance, having done what you have done, we will pass this thing over.  We will have an hour's adjournment.  There are a number of issues which need attention.  The House will adjourn for an hour and resume thereafter.  The House adjourns for one hour.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Is it necessary for me, every time I stand to remind the House that the House is in session until the Speaker leaves the Chamber?  I do not think it is necessary every time for me to repeat myself therefore.  Thank you.

	BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 15:24
	RESUMED AT 17:52

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Chief Whip.

8.3	KWAZULU-NATAL INTERIM MINI-BUS TAXI BILL

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would like to again move a motion without notice in terms of Rule 104(b):
	
	MOTION:

		To postpone discussion on the KwaZulu-Natal Interim Minibus Taxi Bill until the Bill has been referred back to the Portfolio Committee on Transport and published for public comment.  

Mr Speaker, this has been an issue which has occupied the House for a considerable period today and has also been the subject of fairly heated debate.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order, order, Mr Mtetwa.  You are crossing the line between the Speaker and the Chief Whip.  

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, in motivating this motion I will be very brief and deal with one or two of the technical aspects.  One of my colleagues will, later on at the conclusion of the short debate, deal with some of the principal aspects of the Bill.

Mr Speaker, we are aware, in the IFP, that this Bill did go to Cabinet and the general principles of the Bill did get Cabinet approval.  We are also aware that the Bill in fact did get approval from the Portfolio Committee.  We are also aware that a certificate was issued in terms of section 120 of the Rules, which in fact waived the necessity for publication of the Bill.  Then, of course, we are also aware that the Portfolio Committee agreed that consultants should in fact go through the consultation process.

Mr Speaker, having conceded all those points, as a caucus, we felt, in the IFP, that final decisions on all matters are ultimately taken here in this House.  This Bill is now before this House and there are still aspects relating to the procedure which resulted in the final Bill with which we are not happy.  The basic problem we have is the fact that we do not believe that there has been adequate consultation.  Our grounds for putting that point is that the Bill at no time has ever been published for public comment.  So the consultative process that actually took place with the consultants, we are not sure how they identified the people who they should consult with.  We are not sure by what means they found these people, and we are very concerned that if we were to pass this Bill here today it could very easily backfire on this House where next week, or two weeks later, once the Bill is being implemented there could be a delegation of taxis arriving at the entrance to Parliament and protesting most strenuously against the Bill because we do know that there are individuals out there in the taxi industry who do not approve of the Bill as it stands.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  So, Mr Speaker, with that short motivation we think that it behoves us in this House, it is our responsibility in this House, it is not a consultant's responsibility, it is our responsibility, to actually be part of and take control of that consultative process because, after all, it is us who pass the Bill.

So although the consultants may say we have consulted wisely, and I have got every reason to believe they have consulted wisely and widely, I think that we would be negligent in our own duties if we did not refer this Bill back to the Committee for them to deal with the consultation process further.

Mr Speaker, just to pre-empt some debate that may come, I would also like to point out that the principles in this Bill, and the problems in the taxi industry, and the deaths in the taxi industry, are all something which the IFP would strongly support resolving.  We agree with the broad principles that there must be some control.  We are also horrified by the deaths and the violence in the industry.  We agree that some measures should be taken to overcome that.  

Having said that, we do not see that another month, while we went through a consultation process, would in fact harm the process that severely.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the ANC will strongly oppose the motion proposed by the hon Mr Tarr.  I must say I am actually quite amazed and speechless.  I would submit that the motion is out of order for the following reasons.

Our Rules provide, and I want to emphasise the fact that I am going according to the Rules, not according to some misguided caucus instruction, our Rules provide that in terms of Rule 120(b) a member of Cabinet may apply to you, Mr Speaker, to certify that a particular Bill is an urgent measure.  That has happened, and that is common cause.  Minister Ndebele applied to you duly in terms of the Rule on the recommendation of the Portfolio Committee, might I add, that you certified this Bill as an urgent matter.  You, no doubt, applied your mind to the matter, because there was proper motivation, and agreed that the delay in publication may result in prejudice to the general public.  

What is happening now, the IFP is, through the back door, trying to overturn a ruling by the Speaker, properly made in terms of our Rules, not in terms of a thumb-suck, in terms of our Rules.  They are coming through the back door, and one can only conclude that there must be a faction in the IFP that is very good at using back doors, because the Portfolio Committee agreed.  They agreed.  Not a squeak or a murmur.  They agreed.  So ex post facto we are coming through the back door, and Mr Speaker, I am sorry to say so, but this is tantamount to a vote of no-confidence in you, Mr Speaker, from the majority party.  That is what they are doing here.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  This motion is wholly out of order because it is a contradiction in terms, that the Speaker can rule that a matter is urgent and then you come and you say suspend it, we have got time.  It is a contradiction in terms.  By necessary implication, once we proceed in terms of Rule 121(b), in terms of a decision by you duly made, you cannot thereafter suspend.  It actually makes a mockery and a nonsense of this Rule.  It sets a very unhealthy precedent, because a Minister will motivate this matter as urgent, you will agree, the Portfolio Committee will agree, they will proceed, and then we say, no, no, no, it does not suit my caucus for whatever vested interest we may have.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  There should not be public consultation.  It is a bad thing.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  That is not what I am saying, Mr Schutte.  You can learn a lot about consultation.  Let me tell you that.  Now on the issue of consultation, I am glad you reminded me of the issue of consultation.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  With the knowledge of the Portfolio Committee, the Department embarked on an extensive process of consultation.  If you do not read your documentation, hon Mr Schutte, that is your problem.  Please read the document and you will see exactly who has been consulted.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Now this was not something the Department did in secret.  They did it with the knowledge and in consultation with the Portfolio Committee, and your members on that Committee were aware of that.  So on the issue of consultation, honestly, that is silly.  These are red herrings, Mr Speaker.  There must be another reason why we are actually turning this House into a farce.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  From the ANC's side we propose that we proceed in terms of our Rules.  It has been verified that all procedural requirements have been complied with.  It is common cause now that procedural requirements have been complied with.  I ask you to rule on the matter, Mr Speaker, because I submit that the motion is out of order, improperly before the House and makes a mockery of our Rules.  I ask you for a ruling, please, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I am concerned about this motion because in motivating it, the hon Chief Whip of the majority party indicated that the reason why they want the Bill referred to a Committee is for publication.  Rule 120(b) gives you the authority, Mr Speaker, to grant a certificate of exemption.  

One must look at what was the intention of the Legislature in drafting Rule 104.  That intention, Mr Speaker, is not being followed.  What this motion is, is a motion to nullify the certificate given by the Speaker.  That is the motion.  There is nothing in our Rules where this House can nullify your decision.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!:  

MR A RAJBANSI:  What would have been better for the hon Chief Whip to do is to submit a motion requesting you to reconsider your decision, but you dare not come to the House to put a motion, to use a motion, which legally and in effect means that this Parliament must vote to bring the office of the Speaker into disrepute.  

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!:  

MR A RAJBANSI:  I want to appeal to the hon Chief Whip that the approach could have been that he comes to your office and says that they have a predicament, and can you, in consultation with the Minister, review your ruling, so that we do not interfere with the dignity of the office of the Speaker of Parliament.  There is nothing in this Rule, Mr Speaker, where this House can overrule your ruling.

I want to appeal to the hon Chief Whip that if it means adjourning to reconsider this matter, please do so, but I am convinced that this motion in effect means that this House must vote against your certificate.  It is an unwise thing to do.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!:  

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes.

MR J C N WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, may we, on this side of the House, just say that we agree that this is a matter of public importance.  When we deal with such matters, there should be wide consultation.  Let me use the words my colleagues always use here.  They always say such measures should be all-inclusive and transparent.

Colleagues on this side of the Chamber keep saying that we supported the measure and we had gone all the way with the measure, but let me put the record straight, Mr Speaker.  This Bill was informally discussed with the Portfolio Committee in November.  Then in February we saw the Bill formally, on the 27th.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J C N WAUGH:  What then happened, it was mentioned that there was a wide consultation.  Mr Volker raised the issue that there had not been adherence to the Rules.  We then said, and I said it from our side, Mr Speaker, that we can agree on it if we know with whom and what consultation had taken place at that stage in February.  

On Monday we were confronted with a list of consultations.  At that stage I said that we do not accept it because we are of the opinion that individuals have been excluded in the consultation process.  So even at that stage I had reservations about it, and I said that I will keep the options of our party open on this issue.

Let me go further, Mr Speaker.  We went on and we discussed the Bill on Monday.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  The National Party are known for consultations.

MR J C N WAUGH:  We discussed the Bill on Monday.  We agreed, that three changes be made to the Bill.  The Committee agreed that these changes be made.  I can submit these changes to you.  
In section 27, we said the words "after consultation with the relevant Parliamentary Portfolio Committee" must be added.  We agreed right there.  

In section 27(b), we said the words "to represent organised business" must be deleted.  

In section 27(c), we said "to represent organised labour" must also be deleted.

Mr Speaker, today we have a Bill before us that has ignored the fact that it was agreed within the Portfolio Committee.  So is what the Portfolio Committee agrees on not relevant?  Is that of no importance to this House?   

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J C N WAUGH:  That is right.  That was transparent.  We had a transparent process in the Portfolio Committee, but what was decided, was totally ignored, and we cannot go along with that.  

The changes that were made were ignored.  We cannot allow this to happen.  Therefore we support the motion to ensure that this Bill goes back to the Portfolio Committee, so at least when we discuss the issues, we can put it back on the table and have approval and the proper Bill will be brought back.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Roger Burrows.  May I make mention of this fact that I am allowing one member for each party to represent the views of his party.  It is quite in order, Mr Burrows, for the DP, for you to stand up.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Democratic Party was ready at 11 o'clock this morning, in terms of the Order Paper, to speak on the Bill that was properly on the Order Paper, in terms of section 121(b), according to which you had issued a certificate informing us that the Bill was an urgent measure and that its delay or publication may result in prejudice to the general public.  We accepted that certificate.  We were ready to debate it.  We will oppose the motion.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!:  

THE SPEAKER:  Minority Front, yes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I have applied for a ruling from you.  In fact my application to you is for a ruling that this motion in effect means that this House must vote to nullify your ruling.  That is the application.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Tarr.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Something has gone wrong with your mike, Mike.  It is on now.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  No, no, no.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  What is wrong with it.  It comes on and off.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, in response to the argument raised by the hon Mr Rajbansi, and I think the hon Chief Whip also raised a similar argument, we believe that your ruling under section 120 of the Rules had the effect of bringing this matter on to the Order Paper.  That is exactly what happened, Mr Speaker.  

Now after that, it is the prerogative of this House to deal with matters on the Order Paper as it sees fit.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Order, please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, your ruling brought the matter before the House.  We are now debating the matter, and it is a prerogative of this House, I repeat myself, to decide what we do with items on the Order Paper.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Do you expect us to really believe that.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I do actually because it is correct.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Let us have order, please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I submit that that is not a point of order and that we can proceed.

THE SPEAKER:  I thought I had said I would have one person from each party to deal with this matter.  Views have been expressed from all sides.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, mine is a point of order along with the point taken by Mr Rajbansi.  I also requested that you make a ruling.  I submitted that the motion brought in terms of Rule 104(d) is out of order because it is a contradiction.  It is in contradiction with Rule 121(b) by necessary implication.  Otherwise it is all just silly.  I did request that you make a ruling on that, please, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  On a situation of this nature I do not think, at the present moment, I am in a position to make a ruling.  I rather think I will put the question to the House of whether this motion is in order or not.  I put it to the House.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  I rather prefer it that way seeing that there are hot feelings on both sides.  I am of the opinion that the ruling of the House will be far more important than my own.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, if I could address you very briefly.  There is nothing I have ever heard of anywhere that says that the House cannot dispose of the business on the Order Paper as it deems fit.  There is an Order Paper in front of us in this House.  It is the final and ultimate authority that disposes of the Order Paper as it wishes.  We are simply now moving that this matter on the Order Paper be referred back to a Committee of the House.  So I request that you rule that this debate goes on and the speakers left on your speakers list be allowed to make their contributions, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  If the hon Mr James Waugh moves that this matter be referred to the Committee for the reasons which he gave, to say that there were certain amendments agreed to by the Committee, and not typed in, is it correct?

MR J C N WAUGH:  That is correct.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Right.  That is a good reason to use 104, but not to nullify the ruling of the Speaker.  That is the difference.

AN HON MEMBER:  Correct.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I will agree with him, if it is not typed in, we can meet tomorrow morning and check the minutes and type the amendments in, which the National Party proposed.  We can put it back on the Order Paper.  

For publication means that we cannot vote, Mr Speaker, on a ruling which you have already given because it will create such a situation where we bring the office of the Speaker into disrepute.  What I want to suggest, if the hon Chief Whip could come to your office tomorrow morning and say, please, Mr Speaker, could you review your ruling, that is a different approach.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes.  

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, I wonder if I could ......

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Order, please.  We cannot allow that to happen.  Order, please.  The hon member has the floor.  Whether you like what he says or not, it does not matter.  He has the full right to say it.  

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, sir, if I could be allowed.....

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Order, please.  What has happened to the House?  Why are people so wild now?  That is a new situation in this House.  This place is famous for the fact that there is order in the Legislature.   [LAUGHTER]  What has happened now?

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, if I could be allowed to please address you on the point.

THE SPEAKER:  Please carry on.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, the Chief Whip is absolutely correct.  You used the Rule to bring this matter to the House.  This House is sovereign, and this House has a motion before it which refers to no particular matter, it refers this Bill back to the Committee.  It does not affect your previous ruling at all.  No Rule is more weightier than another and it is mischievous in the extreme for members opposite to try and argue......

MR R M BURROWS:  On a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Point of order, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  On a point of order, with respect, sir.   I ask you to observe Rule 65.  You have a speakers list in front of you.  Please could you observe and follow the speakers list.  Mr Konigkramer has an opportunity on that speakers list.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  65.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  At this point in time I want to assure the House that I will reserve my ruling until tomorrow, whereupon I will adjourn the House and the matter will be picked up tomorrow.  It is as simple as that.  I will adjourn the House.  My ruling will be coming through tomorrow.  The Rules allow me to do that, and nobody is going to say now or never you are ruling.  

So let us leave it that.  It is already late.  We were supposed to have adjourned for an hour.  We did not do that.  We have passed the normal time.  It is now passed six and I submit that I am going to adjourn the House.  Tomorrow I will give you my ruling on this matter.  The House adjourns till 11 o'clock tomorrow.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Order, please.  Please be contained and be human and be civilised and all that.  Please, I request.

	BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:18 
	UNTIL 11:00 ON 19 MARCH 1998.

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	FIRST SITTING - THIRD SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 19 MARCH 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 11:07 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ~ULUNDI~.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.

Yesterday we closed after I had been asked to make a ruling and I said I would make a ruling today over the motion put forward by Mr Tarr.  

You will excuse me.  I have omitted that we must follow the Order Paper before I get to this one.  I see the Minister of Economic Affairs is joking with me for having missed that issue.  It was because this matter is paramount to me anyway.  Now to the business.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, ceremonial matters, I want to suggest that we congratulate the hon Mr Wessel Nel on a matrimonial matter.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  I do not think anybody, except Mr Rajbansi, is unusual.  We proceed.

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATIONS

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  I have no announcements to make.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon, the Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to raise a matter pertaining to my speech of yesterday.  Due to an unfortunate administrative oversight, the speech did not contain a reference to the Department of Transport.  I wish to apologise to the Minister for this.  In doing so, I want to recognise the activities of himself and his Department in KwaZulu-Natal and, of course, nationally, because he has created new precedents such as the Booze Bus and many other programmes which are a model for the whole country.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  They have amongst other things, been very active in the provision of rural access roads, road safety and the prevention and eradication of fraud with government motor vehicles.  Their Arrive Alive Campaign is an excellent example of a pro-active initiative which addresses a real concern of the people of our Province.

In my speech yesterday I wished to address certain major challenges facing the Province, whilst I left a lot of details about departments to the budget votes.  It would be impossible to do justice to all the activities of departments in a speech such as that of yesterday.  

Consequently I addressed the issues of education, crime, our financial position and rural development, (especially the settlement of small farmers) and household food security as my main themes, whilst I would have liked to mention other departments, this unfortunately did not happen in the matter of Transport.  The oversight not to refer to Transport was however not courteous and I wish to correct that today.

The oversight was not intentional and in no way was it intended to snub any one of the departments of our Government of Provincial Unity.  So I hope this will correct the situation.

I must, however, add that I sent a circular to departments a long long time before yesterday's speech, it was on 9 March 1998.  Some departments had not submitted their inputs for this policy statement.  Included, of course, was the Transport Department.  [LAUGHTER]

Thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

THE SPEAKER:  The hon, the Minister of Housing.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, I would like to take the opportunity in the form of a report which I will table to inform the House, because I believe it is of public importance, that earlier this week senior officials of the northern region of my Department based in ~Ulundi~ have been arrested and are currently out on bail.  They are out on bail on the following charges, amongst others, sir.  

	*	The running of illegal money-lending schemes in contravention of both the Usury Act and the Treasury regulations whereby money was lent to personnel and the repayments were illegally debited from their salaries at interest rates as much as 30% per week.  

	*	There was theft of leave gratuity and other pension-related cheques which have not been paid to the correct beneficiaries.

	*	There is evidence of several staff drawing more than one salary, and salaries of retired persons having been reinstated and illegally diverted into fraudulent bank accounts.

	*	There were false submissions for both overtime, subsistence and travel allowance on a vast scale.  

	*	There was failure to process leave forms resulting in gross overpayments of leave gratuities upon retirement and upon the granting of severance packages.

	*	Standing advances which have not been repaid, and they are outstanding as far back as 1996, and also thousands of salary advices which have not been issued to personnel.

Further arrests are expected.  We cannot yet specifically quantify, but this litany of fraud and corruption runs into several million rand.

I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  The hon, the Minister of Pensions.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):  Mr Speaker, I regard this as important to report the arrest of four Swazi citizens on the border near Pongola.  They were charged yesterday and they appeared in the Magistrate's Court.  They were refused bail because that would land us in trouble.  As they are Swazi citizens, if they were allowed bail, we would not see them again.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Arrested for?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):  They are charged with stealing pension money, South African pension money.  

AN HON MEMBER:  They are from Swaziland?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):  Yes.  So I just want to assure those that are concerned that pension money is not well looked after, that we are doing our utmost best to apprehend the culprits.  I want also to show those that want to know when the Fraud Squad finishes its work, that they can put those questions to the Swazi citizens and members of the staff that are engaged in fraudulent activities.  I cannot say when this will stop.  It is an on-going process.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Minister of Pensions.  Yes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am very sorry to interrupt you at this point.  I did try to see you in your office this morning, but unfortunately you were not available until the House was due to resume.

I think we all, in the heat of emotion yesterday, overlooked something.  We overlooked a very, very clear Rule, and I am now referring to the debate on the motion introduced by Mr Tarr.  Rule 103, the "same question Rule", not one of us referred you to that, and I think it may very well impact on your ruling.

THE SPEAKER:  103?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Rule 103.  It is the "same question Rule" under motions.  The Rule reads thus:

	No matter shall be proposed for discussion in this House which is the same in substance as a matter that has been discussed in it during the same Sitting.

It goes on to say:

	No draft resolution shall be moved in this House which is the same in substance as a draft resolution which has been approved or rejected by it during the same Sitting, except an amendment expressly allowed by the presiding officer.

Mr Speaker, if I may refer you then to the minutes of our proceedings of yesterday.  On page 4, paragraph 6, at 11:30 yesterday morning Mr Tarr moved in terms of Rule 104(d).  That is the Rule that refers a Bill to a Committee, that the Interim Taxi Bill be referred to the Transport Committee.  It was discussed by this House and we all agreed to that motion albeit with certain reservations from the ANC's side.  

The Committee did meet, and may I point out while we are looking at the minutes, that the Committee has not yet reported back to the House and that was part of the resolution:

	The Committee was to meet immediately after the House adjourns, which it did, and send a report back after the House resumes.  That has not been done.

Mr Speaker, then I would like you to refer to our minutes at paragraph 12 on page 5.  At 17:54 the hon Mr Tarr moves a motion which is exactly the same as the one he moved that morning and which the House discussed and agreed to.  He moves in terms of exactly the same Rule, Rule 104(d), that the Bill be referred to the Committee.

As I say, I think we were probably all somewhat emotional yesterday, and our brains did not function as they should, because we should all have picked it up.  Mr Tarr, who should have known better, should not have moved the same motion twice on the one day, especially since the Committee had not even finalised its work in terms of the resolution unanimously adopted by this House.

Mr Speaker, while I thought it was important to bring this to your attention before your ruling, and I have no idea what your ruling would be in terms of the arguments presented to you yesterday, I thought this is new information that you may not have considered.  I therefore submit respectfully that in terms of Rule 103 Mr Tarr's motion is truly out of order and that there can be no dispute on the matter.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I have listened to the arguments of the hon Chief Whip and I have also taken note of the Rule.

Now Mr Speaker, if you look at the rule, there are two arguments I would like to advance against Mrs Cronje, Chief Whip of the ANC.  We did not propose any matter for discussion.  In fact what we proposed was the matter not be discussed.  You may actually argue that is a technicality, but we did not move that anything be discussed in this House.  We moved that a matter be referred to a committee.  That is the first thing, Mr Speaker.

AN HON MEMBER:  It is the same as what you did in the morning.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  The same in the morning.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  The second thing, Mr Speaker, if you look at the motion, the motion also asked that the Committee should report back to this House.  Now the Committee did not report back to the House.  So if in fact the hon Chief Whip wishes to pursue this matter, the only way to resolve it is for the Committee then to meet, which will waste more time of the House, and the Committee will then report back to this House if that matter should be referred back to the Committee.

Now if the hon Chief Whip and the party over there, wishes to waste another two hours of this House's time they can proceed along those lines, but I would ask you, Mr Speaker, that you first apply your mind to the fact that it was not a motion proposing that a discussion takes place in this House at all.  It was a motion proposing that a matter which was on our Order Paper be referred back to the Committee?  Thank you.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  You did it twice.

AN HON MEMBER:  On the same day, right.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, from what I understand there may well be a middle point because the point taken by the hon member of the ANC is that at 11:30 this House agreed to a resolution that the item be referred to the Portfolio Committee and such Committee to consider two things.

	1.	Whether the Bill is properly before the House, and

	2.	Whether the Committee is satisfied that the Bill be proceeded with.

It seems to me, Mr Speaker, that Mr Tarr's, the hon member from the IFP, second resolution is that the matter be referred back to the Committee and published for public comment, as the words are in the minutes that I read, and that is a decision the Committee could well make.  It seems to me that the middle path is that we have agreed that it be referred to the Committee and that the Committee can decide to open it for public debate.

I would suggest that you rule that the matter has been disposed of, that the Bill go back to the Committee, and the Committee then make a decision such as opening it for public debate and comment if they wish.

THE SPEAKER:  May I have the comments of the Chief Whip?  Yes, Minister.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):  Mr Speaker, when I made that announcement I forgot to give the names of the culprits.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):  So that they are splashed out all over.  I made another mistake.  I said there were four.  There are five in fact.  It is a lot of money.  
The first one is Ndlangmandla Sontombi, Passport no. C159691.
The second one is Mamba Tryphina Thalitha, ID 3610101334087.
The third one is Mary Sicebi Gumbi, ID 34061803372084.
The fourth is Nxumalo Lathipi, ID 3003210210085
The fifth is Masuku Makhelwane George, Passport no. C227342.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Back to the question of the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I want to concur with the sentiments expressed by the hon Mr Burrows.  Actually this Bill now has to be reported by the Committee and we have to await that report, and we can give the Committee an instruction that during the course of the day the report be submitted.  The Committee met.  So actually legally, in my opinion, the matter is not on the table.  It is with the Committee.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Could I suggest then, Mr Speaker, you proceed with the next matter on the Order Paper, which is a matter of public importance, and that the Committee should report back to this House after the lunch break.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  May I also address you on the point at issue?

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, sir.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  I would like to refer you again to Rule 103(1):

	No matter shall be proposed for discussion which is the same in substance.

Mr Speaker, if I look at the minutes, the first proposal by Mr Tarr is that it should be referred back to the Committee and that Committee should decide whether it should be proceeded with or not.  The second proposal is not the same in substance.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  It says that the Bill be referred back to the Portfolio Committee and be published for public comment.  In other words, that it should be now fully disposed with, that it be referred back and that it be then dealt with in terms of the Rules.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, order, order, please.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

AN HON MEMBER:  It is a wide difference.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  There cannot be any argument that these two proposals are in substance the same.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Order, please.  Order, please.  Let us get this thing clear in all our heads.  In this Parliament a person is entitled to speak and is given a right to do so.  He has a constitutional right to do so and no person, whoever it may be, may interfere with that right.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Let us all agree therefore that we will honour the Constitution.  I do not care how foolish the other man may be saying it, according to you.  He is entitled to say so.  Let us not have the situation where a man or a woman who has the floor is in fact interfered with and is stopped from doing what he wants to do.  Please let us cooperate, otherwise it will be difficult to handle this meeting.  I may have to call upon members to leave the House but I would rather not do that.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!   Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Let us not have two Parliaments.  The hon member is busy with her conversation and I take exception to that.  I have just been saying that people should be quiet and allow other people to speak.  People should not engage in other discussions while a debate is on.  I will have no alternative but to ask members to leave the premises if they carry on doing that sort of thing.  Now that is your warning, the last one.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence.  On the point raised by the hon Mr Danie Schutte, I make the point that this House resolved yesterday that the Bill be dealt with by the Committee and report back.  That is the issue.  We have taken the Bill out of the Legislature.  It is with the Committee now, and in terms of that 11:30 resolution we have to await the report of the Committee.

THE SPEAKER:  It is a problem.  We left yesterday with the idea of me having to rule whether the motion proposed by Mr Tarr, the Chief Whip, was in order or not in order.  That is why this morning I even made a mistake of starting there and forgetting the normal procedures that we have in this House.  For that I apologise.  

I am at a point where actually it is no longer the question of my ruling.  I suppose the ANC Chief Whip does not want me to rule as she had in fact asked me to do on the grounds that the thing is no longer before the House.  What is the position?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think there has been a request that you should let this matter stand over, we proceed with item 8.3 on the Order Paper.  The Committee will report back to the House after lunch.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I think the other parties would agree we proceed with item 8.3 on the Order Paper.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We will therefore proceed accordingly.  Mr Roger Burrows has a problem.

MR R M BURROWS:  Yes, Mr Speaker, I have a problem because somehow inadvertently the hon member from the ANC leapt up at a point where you had got to item 7 on the agenda, and you had not in fact addressed Bills or motions.  I trust you will take that before you move to item 8.3.

THE SPEAKER:  I am grateful to you, Mr Burrows.  Somehow or other I skipped no. 7.  I will therefore correct it.  It is a correction.  The Premier makes corrections, I make corrections, everybody makes corrections.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you.  

7.  NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day that:

	This House calls on all Political Party leaders in KwaZulu-Natal to meet to organise a fully representative multi-party election body to help keep the peace in KwaZulu-Natal during the period up to the 1999 election.  The Premier to convene such a first meeting.

I move.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day I will move as follows:

	That this House recognising the need for the training of doctors to serve in the rural areas; and bearing in mind the national shortage of doctors (2 000 as declared by the National Minister of Health), especially in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal; views with concern the attitude of the Interim Medical and Dental Council in not recognising medical qualifications of South African Students studying in overseas countries, for example, in the Dominican Republic and in India; and in not allowing such qualified students to register as medical practitioners in the country of their birth to offer their services to their respective provinces; 

	and further views with concern the refusal of some universities to accommodate such students to integrate courses at the South African universities.

	We call upon the provincial Minister of Health to facilitate the inclusion of such students through a special study programme in order that they may be approved for registration by the Interim Medical and Dental Council.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Any further motions?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, Mr Speaker.  Before I move my motion, you are the custodian of fair reporting from this House.  The Natal Mercury has done me a grave injustice by referring to me as the leader of the Freedom Front.  [LAUGHTER]

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I place the Natal Mercury in your lap in order for you, in your wisdom, to deal with the matter as you deem fit.

AN HON MEMBER:  The Mercury is correct.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  I owe no apologies for fighting for my group, the Indian community.  I do not apologise.  I do it with transparency and all the conspicuousness I can demand, unlike the hon member in front of me.

THE SPEAKER:  May I enquire from the hon member when he will read the motion and not the speeches?

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you.  I bow to your wisdom.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this hon House notes that despite a bleak picture that is being painted about our Province there is genuine progress in many fields in areas such as industrial, commercial, agriculture and as well as in other spheres, and notes with concern that the SMMEs and the informal sectors are not progressing to the extent that emerging entrepreneurs should be assisted and therefore calls upon the hon Premier and the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism to ensure that, with the assistance of Local Government structures, all SMMEs and informal sectors are assisted and also to ensure that regulations provide for the establishment of cottage or home industries in the urban as well as in the rural areas.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Again Mr Roger Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

	Noting the appalling backlog in physical facilities at schools in KwaZulu-Natal and knowing that this backlog cannot possibly be addressed by KwaZulu-Natal's current budget expenditure on education; 

	Calls on the National Government to commit itself to the creation of a Redress Fund specifically designed to remove these backlogs in provinces in a strict timetabled manner.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.



MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order, yes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I request you to waive the interim Rules on the number of motions a member can move as proposed by the hon Mr Wessel Nel in the absence of the hon Mr Roger Burrows.  I support that.  I suggest that you waive your interim order.

THE SPEAKER:  I will do so, but perhaps the last time that happens.  No further motions by members.  Thank you.  Let us proceed, good people.  We have 8.1 standing down.  We are on 8.2 now, KZN Interim Minibus Taxi Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  8.3.

AN HON MEMBER:  There comes the Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  It gives me pleasure to move the KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Bill as ordered by the Speaker just now.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, of course.  Yes, thank you.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, of course.  Thank you, Mr Chief Whip.  The hon Minister may, for the moment, take his seat.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Respect the Speaker.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I think, with all due respect, Mr Speaker, the decision of this House was that we would proceed with item 8.3 because item 8.2 depends on the outcome of item 8.1.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  I am sorry, I am alive to that.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi, the issue is now clear.  Let us proceed to 8.3 whatever other ideas you might have.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I ask for your ruling?

THE SPEAKER:  I had said no further motions to be passed.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you.  

THE SPEAKER:  I do not know why Mr Rajbansi does not seem to be satisfied with that.  We will get to 8.3 now.

8.3	DEBATE ON A MATTER OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE INTRODUCED BY MR P POWELL IN TERMS OF RULE 100

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Mr Powell, please.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order, in terms of our Rules members have not yet been supplied with the speakers list for item 8.3.  

THE SPEAKER:  Yes.  We have apparently been supplied with this.  No, it does not look as though it has got to you. I have just received it now.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Who are the members that are without the list, please?  Let us see those that have got the list.  Yes, Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, those lists were typed.  I have seen them.  They have been prepared, and I cannot understand why you do not have one.  I will see that one is with you as soon as possible.

THE SPEAKER:  As the members insist on having the list we will wait for a short while.  The list is being handed out.  May we proceed as the list is being given out?   The first speaker here, in terms of the list, is the hon Mr Konigkramer, who speaks for 15 minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, it is again a point of order.  I do not believe the House has before it the substance of the debate.  That has not been given to any member.  We need to at least have the substance of the debate and what we are discussing.  

THE SPEAKER:  What has happened to the supply of the information now?  Mr Secretary, may I be informed, please?  Apparently copies are being made at the present moment.

I had a request yesterday for an introduction of the new members who were sworn in at different places before the session.  May I have those members introduced, please, now that we are waiting for the papers to be made available.  Yes, Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, we have the pleasure in introducing our new member, Mr J C Matthee of the National Party who replaces Mr Redinger.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  May the hon member please stand up and be seen and be counted.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I thought the ANC Chief Whip has somebody to introduce.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Yes.  Mr Speaker, as you are aware Mr Cele has gone to the National Assembly and we are very pleased to now introduce Mr Sipho Gcabashe as the new ANC member in this House.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Welcome, Mr Gcabashe.   

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Any further introductions?  None.  Good.  I do not know how long it is going to take to have these papers printed and supplied to the House.  How many people have got these papers anyway?  Yes, Mr Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, while we are waiting for that to be distributed could I just raise two points?  

The first point is that the hon Minister Ndebele moved that we now proceed and debate his Bill.  I requested, in terms of the decision of the House, to refer that Bill to the Portfolio Committee.  To avoid any problems that may arise, could that be removed from the record of the House, Mr Speaker?

Mr Speaker, the other thing, while we are waiting for the substance of the letter relating to the motion, I really must make a point in this House.  That has been known, that it is going to be debated, for a considerable period of time.  That document has been in your office.  It was available, and readily available, to every member of this House and to every Whip in every other party.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  So, Mr Speaker, it has been available.  I took the trouble to get it myself and I think that it was readily available to anybody in this House who took the trouble to get it.

Mr Speaker, we have a problem in this House.  The party on the other side of the House think they run this Province.

AN HON MEMBER:  We run the country.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  That party is being thoroughly petty in disrupting the workings of this House by pulling every red herring.....

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Can I finish, please, Mr Speaker?

THE SPEAKER:  Please let him finish.  I will entertain the point of order.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  The hon Chief Whip, I do not know under what Rule he is addressing the House because it is certainly not a point of order, and he also has his facts wrong.  It is not this party that raised the issue.  My point of order is that he is wholly out of order because he is not speaking under any Rule.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Yes, correct.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for that.  Yes, Chief Whip.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute, Mr Rajbansi.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the matter relates to the request for the letter from Mr Powell requesting that we have this debate.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Under what Rule are you speaking?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  By the National Party.  What is your Rule.

AN HON MEMBER:  Not by us.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I am simply pointing out, Mr Speaker, that the proceedings of this House are unnecessarily being disrupted by every possible red herring that can be pulled across the trail.

AN HON MEMBER:  Not by us.

THE SPEAKER:  There is a request by the hon Mr Powell.  I do not know who has this paper or who does not have it.  It is being distributed now.  In the meantime shall we listen to the Raj?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I want to make an appeal to you that the provision of our South African Constitution about the role of minor parties is not being complied with.  According to the PR system, the ACDP, the PAC and us will qualify for approximately five minutes, but we have been short-changed.  I have been given less time, two minutes, and I could interject the entire debate and get 20 minutes, but I will refrain from doing so.  [LAUGHTER]

I want to make an appeal to the Whips to review this position while the debate carries on.

THE SPEAKER:  I am happy, Mr Rajbansi.  You are aware this is a matter that concerns the Whips.  We are presented with what the Whips agreed upon.  If there is any short-changing that happens, please get your remainder of the change from the Whips.  Please do so.  

Have we got the paper?  I am rather worried that we are not making any progress at the present moment.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes, we have got it.

THE SPEAKER:  Have we all got the motion from Mr Powell?  I hope we do have it.  In which case I will therefore call upon the hon Mr Konigkramer to address the House for 15 minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, when His Majesty, the King, formally opened this Parliament on Tuesday, he strongly condemned the robbing of banks and pension heists.  He pleaded with the people of this Province to desist from such anti-social and criminal behaviour.

It is bad enough if criminal elements fail to heed His Majesty's advice.  But, Mr Speaker, what are we to make of it if people who hold high office not only ignore the advice of His Majesty by conniving to provide cover for such criminality, but actively aid and abet such criminals?

Since time is limited, I shall confine myself to two cases among 10 relating to armed robbery involving banks and pension monies.  There is no time to deal with a host of murders committed by people who answered to ANC leaders sitting opposite, but my colleagues will table details of cases that need formal investigation.

On Friday, 9 June 1995, while this House was in session here at ~Ulundi~, a group of four criminals sought to rob the KwaZulu-Natal Government of a substantial amount of pension monies at Cedara.

The robbers were armed with an AK47 rifle and several hand guns, one of which was an official firearm belonging to the South African Police Services and which was used in the robbery by a serving member of the South African Police Services.  The robbery went wrong when the guards resisted.

The first robber, whose name was Sibusiso Mavimbela, was shot in the head and back and died on the scene.  He was a bodyguard of the late Mr Harry Gwala, Midlands leader of the African National Congress.  His work address was ANC Office, Church Street, Pietermaritzburg.

The second robber, whose name was Pendukelwe Bhengu, was shot in the head and was arrested on the scene.  He died in hospital.  Mr Bhengu was the bodyguard of Dr Zweli Mkhize, Treasurer of the African National Congress and current Minister of Health of the KwaZulu-Natal Government.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  I will have no comment.  I will have no comments and interjections that affect the man that holds the floor.  I have already made that request in the hope that we will honour that arrangement.  Mr Konigkramer, please carry on.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The third robber's name was Bright Phumlani Mthembu and he was shot in the leg while trying to flee from the scene of the robbery.  He was arrested and taken to Greys Hospital.  He too had been a bodyguard of Dr Zweli Mkhize, the Treasurer of the ANC.  His residential address was given as "ANC House, Dambuza".

But Mr Mthembu was also a serving member of the South African Police Services based at Truro House in Durban.  He was recognised by a serving member of the South African Police Services at the scene of the crime.  His police service card and his service pistol were recovered on the scene of the crime.

Mr Mthembu was read his rights in terms of the Constitution of South Africa in Greys Hospital on 12 June 1995 and agreed to make a statement.  He admitted to his role in the armed robbery and told police how it had been planned and carried out.  He said he had been promised R300 000 of the spoils.  Mr Speaker, he had been promised R300 000 of monies belonging to old age pensioners.

Although, as already indicated, there was a fourth robber, there is no mention of him in formal responses to questions we have posed to the management of the South African Police Services.  This notwithstanding, there is a mention of the fourth man in sworn statements that were made to the police by those involved in the robbery.  This is another indicator, Mr Speaker, I believe, that a massive cover-up has taken place.  While Superintendent Fitchet of the Midlands Police Detective Services said in an article published by the Helen Suzman Foundation that no follow-up investigation was made into the fourth suspect because no mention had been made of a fourth suspect, he was contradicted by Superintendent Scott, who said that one of his members had possibly provided him, Mr Fitchet, with wrong information.  Mr Speaker, there are strong indications that the fourth robber was Nte Madishe, another member of Mkhonto ~weSizwe~ and also a bodyguard of Dr Zweli Mkhize.  We need to be told about the whereabouts of this man, who features in many other crimes in the Midlands.

On 2 February, this year, I addressed a letter to the Regional Commissioner of the South African Police Services in KwaZulu-Natal asking whether Mr Mthembu was a member of the South African Police Services.  After a reminder he replied as follows:

	*	Constable Mthembu was a member of the National Protection Services stationed at Truro House.  He had been employed on 24 August 1994.

	*	Constable Mthembu had been suspended on 19 June 1995 after being charged with attempted robbery at Cedara.  (CAS 29/06/095)

	*	Due to the charges being withdrawn......

This is what the Commissioner tells us.....

		.....by the public prosecutor, the suspension was lifted on 9 July 1996.

Now let us turn our attention to the office of the Attorney-General.

On 17 February I asked the Attorney-General, having informed him that the Commissioner had told me that the charges had been withdrawn, I asked him to confirm that in fact this had happened, and I asked him to provide me with the reasons why these charges had been withdrawn.

Again I had to send reminders, and eventually a staff member of the Attorney-General's office telephoned me and said that they had no reference to any Mr Mthembu and they had no documentation.

Then on 3 March 1998 I received a facsimile message from the Attorney-General's office stating the following:

	That the Attorney-General's office had been informed by a certain Superintendent Scott of the Murder and Robbery Unit that Constable Mthembu was deceased.

I wrote back to the Attorney-General saying that he had not answered my question and I had some difficulty in understanding what this had to do with Superintendent Scott.

I was then phoned by a member of the staff of the Attorney-General's office who informed me that he thought I was being facetious, but he soon realised, Mr Speaker, that he was being extremely foolish, and then he proceeded to confirm that in fact the Attorney-General's office had no record of this.  I asked him to put this in writing, but they have not done so.

Let me now return to the Regional Commissioner for a moment.  In his letter of 13 February he stated that Constable Mthembu's service had been terminated on 15 August 1997 due to his death.  According to the Commissioner he had been "given to understand" that Constable Mthembu had been killed on 15 August 1997 when he and five others had attempted to rob a supermarket in Old Main Road, Isipingo.  He and his two co-suspects, the Commissioner said, had been killed in a shootout with six members of the Crime Prevention Unit of the South African Police Services, who intervened.

Now, Mr Speaker, there is a strange twist to this event.  After getting the Commissioner's letter, I made it my business to trace the death certificate of Constable Mthembu.  I discovered to my amazement that the death certificate relating to Mr Mthembu issued by the Department of Home Affairs gave his sex as female.  When I did a little more digging - if you will excuse the pun - I was assured that Mr Mthembu was indeed dead and that he was buried at ~Nhlazatshe~.  When I asked those who were present at the funeral whether they had seen Mr Mthembu in his coffin, they confessed that they had not.  But, Mr Speaker, that is another story and perhaps some day we will have to dig up the grave at ~Nhlazatshe~ and find out who is actually buried there.

Mr Speaker, I now wish to return to events in this House.  When the Cedara robbery went awry, I am reliably informed that this incident was immediately reported to members of this House while we were in session here on the 9th of the month.  At least four members of the hon members opposite, who occupy the benches allocated to the African National Congress, left this Chamber and discussed what should be done about it.  They agreed, I am reliably informed, Mr Speaker that the docket would "be made to disappear".

And, Mr Speaker, disappear it did, although the Attorney-General's office seems to have no record about this.  The police seem to have a number of versions about what actually happened.  As already indicated the Regional Commissioner has stated in writing that the South African Police Services reinstated Constable Mthembu after charges against him had been withdrawn by the public prosecutor.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order?

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes.  In fact I wanted to report it to you that an hon member, Mr Jeffery, is using a cellular phone in the Chamber.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  It is the Rule in this House that cellulars are to be switched off.  Under no circumstances are they to be made use of, and I plead therefore, Mr Jeffery, to see to it that that does not, repeat, not happen.   Thank you.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, perhaps we can excuse him.  Perhaps he is taking instructions.  Now, Mr Speaker, in an article published by the Helen Suzman Foundation earlier this month.....

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute, Mr Konigkramer.  I take exception to the people carrying on with a discussion on the left side of the House.  We are listening to somebody over there.  I would plead that we are all quiet, as I have said, and we listen to the speaker and afterwards deal with the matter.  Please let us co-operate and avoid that.  

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I really have to point out to you that there is order in the House.  You are quite within your rights when the House is in a state of disorder to call members to order.  But I think there is perfect order in the House.  We all can hear clearly what the hon member is saying.  There is no Rule that prevents members, in any parliament in the world, from quietly mentioning something to each other or, for that matter, Mr Speaker, from interjecting.  It is part of the life, the spice and the fun, if you like, of parliaments all over the world.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Thank you very much for that.  The point is this, the very fact that I do hear what is being said goes beyond the situation where the members are allowed to speak to each other.  If you cannot speak to the other person so that you are not heard, I am sorry, that has got to stop.  You are entitled to converse with a member, but in a manner which does not interfere with the hearing, certainly not to this bench.  Let us co-operate.  Let us not split hairs on this issue.  I think we have got an important issue here.  Let us co-operate and listen.  It does not matter if it is painful, right, or whatever it is.  Let us cooperate and listen to the speaker and finish.  Let us not cause confusion by actually doing certain things which detract us now.  Please, please, I ask.  I thought we had agreed on that.  The hon member may proceed.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, I would ask that I be given additional time to complete my address.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, in an article published by the Helen Suzman Foundation earlier this month, a Superintendent Scott of the Pietermaritzburg South African Police Services, Murder and Robbery Unit, said a duplicate copy of the docket had been made because "Mr Mthembu was a member of the South African Police Services" and "it was feared that the original docket would be stolen".

In a written response to questions posed by Mr Philip Powell to the South African Police Services there was a slightly different version again.  Director P T Brown, in a letter dated 17 March, said that the case "was investigated and the case docket was stolen/mislaid before the matter could be placed before the court" which is an entirely different matter.  "Whilst this docket was in the process of being reconstructed", he says, "Mr Mthembu was fatally wounded during an armed robbery at ~Isipingo~    Cas 147/08/97.

Allow me at this point to say that I am not in any way casting aspersions on the senior management of the South African Police Services.  I want to underline that.  I am not criticising them.  They are doing their best under very difficult circumstances.  They are battling, Mr Speaker, and this is the real issue.  They are battling against massive political interference from the members of the African National Congress.  This interference, is tantamount to a charge of defeating the ends of justice.

What are the facts, Mr Speaker?

From what I have been able to piece together, a diligent policeman did indeed laboriously reconstruct the docket with the aim of bringing Mr Mthembu to court.  After all, he had been caught red-handed.

Indeed, although no member of the South African Police Services management has volunteered this information to me, Mr Speaker, I have established beyond doubt that a member of the South African Police Services sought and obtained a warrant for the arrest of Constable Mthembu on 30 May 1997, more than two months before, according to the Regional Commissioner, he was killed in the second armed robbery attempt.

And while this warrant had been issued for his arrest, he was formally employed by the South African Police Services and stationed at Truro House as part of the National Protection Services.  And remember, he had been the bodyguard of a member of this House, Dr Zweli Mkhize.  Yet, we are asked to believe that he could not be found and was thus not arrested for armed robbery.

Mr Speaker, allow me to briefly return to the article on the Cedara robbery written by the Helen Suzman Foundation.  The article states that according to information, Mr Mthembu was taken.....

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute.  Yes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order because the hon member has had more than the time allotted on my speaker paper which says 15 minutes.

THE SPEAKER:  Precisely so.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Could we get a ruling on that.  

THE SPEAKER:  Precisely so.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  I am keeping watch on that.  Because of the interference I have had to extend the time.  I mean let us face it, if the idea of interfering is to shorten the time of the man that holds the floor, then I do not hold with that at all.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hon Mr Speaker, we have to accept your ruling in that regard.  I am indicating that I am keeping time.  Excluding that time of the period when we were discussing this he is already over time.

THE SPEAKER:  No, I do not think so.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  But I respect your ruling.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, I do not know under what Rule the hon Dr Sutcliffe is made the time-keeper, but be that as it may, hon colleague, very clearly you do not like the truth, but I will deal with you in this way.  If I am not allowed to finish my address I will table it and then you will read it anyway.

THE SPEAKER:  You do have about three minutes more to finish up.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, can I please be allowed to continue.

THE SPEAKER:  Please finish.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  The article states, Mr Speaker, that according to information, Mr Mthembu was taken away from the scene of the robbery in a police van, but then was released after "a phone call from a top level Provincial politician".  He was released after a top level politician phoned and asked that he be released.  I believe, Mr Speaker, that that is the truth.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order, yes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I am rising on a point of order in terms of Rule 67, time limits for speeches.  It reads thus.

	Unless otherwise provided for in these Rules, no Member shall exceed the time allocated to him or her in accordance with a list of Members who are to speak in the debate and submitted to the Speaker, provided that.....

And I do not know whether the hon member thinks he falls into one of the following categories:

	......provided that the Premier, the Leader of the largest Minority Party and the Member in charge of business then being debated shall not be so restricted.

THE SPEAKER:  The point at issue is this.  The hon member is not talking.  He is on a point of order and not speaking now.  I do not think the idea of raising a point or order is to cut short the time allocated to the speaker.  As it is 9.30 I could stop him but for the fact that actually a point of order has now been raised.  I have got to consider that.  Two minutes were allowed which would have been over by now.  I do not think the idea of interjecting is to stop or shorten the time allocated to any person who holds the floor.  I do not think that is the idea.

The hon member has just two more minutes to finish.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is thirty minutes now.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  I do not intend at this time to disturb the speaker.  I suggest that you give a ruling to Mrs Cronje's request that she must understand that we have de jure Premier and de facto Premier.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

AN HON MEMBER:  On a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon member please finish?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  On a point of order.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, it is very clear that the hon members opposite do not like the truth, and unfortunately the truth has a way of catching up on you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, what I am going to do.  I am going to summarise what I am going to say, but I am going to formally table my speech.

THE SPEAKER:  You do not have much time.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Because I have been interrupted, and the whole purpose of this exercise is to prevent the truth from coming out.

Mr Speaker, let me just say a telephone call was made, and I believe that the hon member that made that call is sitting in the benches opposite, and I challenge him to stand up and own up that he made the telephone call.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, there is a precedent to this, and I would remind this House that we have been informed before that the hon Dr Zweli Mkhize arranged for a policeman on the murder scene of the late Rodney van der Byl be ordered off the scene because he did not like him.  

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up, Mr Konigkramer.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up, Mr Konigkramer.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now I will call upon the hon Minister Mkhize for 15 minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!  

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  It is ten past twelve now.  

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members.  From 13 January, this year, the Natal Witness carried articles alleging a so-called "ANC Select Unit" having been formed by the ANC in this Province.  Unnamed sources quoted, claimed to have been part of the Unit, which, was said to be responsible for investigations in Richmond and in handing over information to the police.  This Unit was alleged to be reporting to a senior ANC MEC.  Numerous criminal activities were alleged in that article which was entitled "ANC Gang Terrorises Township".

The ANC wishes to put on record that no such Unit called the ANC Select has ever existed.  The ANC has no para-military unit reporting to any of its leadership.  The ANC has not lost control of any of its structures.  To claim that the Unit was involved, as it was said in Richmond, from start to finish, was a deliberate ploy to actually discredit the investigations of Director Engelbrecht and his team.

The ANC has not collected any information that has been given to the police.  What the ANC has done has been to continuously call upon members of communities to come forward with evidence and help the police investigations.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The report contained incorrect statements and combined unrelated issues. Of course the ANC condemns bank robberies, rape and so on.  


But I want to challenge Mr Konigkramer, the hon member, firstly, on the issue that he is talking about at Cedara.  I want to say that the Bhengu, that he is talking about, had been my bodyguard in 1994.  He resigned.  He went to the NPKF.  He resigned.  He went to the army as well, and was integrated.  He AWOLed and when he committed this offence he was not my bodyguard.  I wish the hon member would in fact correct his facts.

Secondly, I want him to produce proof that Bright Mthembu was my bodyguard because he was never my bodyguard.  I want to challenge him to put the VIP police itinerary to this House.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Order, please.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  We reaffirm that the ANC cannot be held responsible for individual criminal activities of any of its supporters or members.  We also do not know how many members of the IFP, National Party, or DP, or any other political parties are involved in criminal activities.  To single out a few criminal cases, attribute them to members of a particular organisation out of hundreds of unsolved cases, is unacceptable.  If there is any evidence of crime committed, the political affiliation of the criminal is irrelevant, and the ANC will never stand in the way of justice.

We challenge anyone who has evidence of crime committed to submit the information to the police.  Crime is crime irrespective of the party political membership or affiliation of the perpetrator.  We are prepared to face our accusers in court.  We have got nothing to hide.

Mr Speaker, there are several concerns that I want to raise about these allegations.  The following police officials have denied any knowledge of such a Unit.  Superintendent Phillip Scholtz, Director Bushy Engelbrecht, and Police spokesman, Captain Joshua Gwala.  The two policemen from Internal Security who were also alleged to have confirmed the existence of such a Unit were in fact deliberately misquoted.  Hence on 15 January 1998, the Commander of Internal Security, Captain Khan was quoted in the Natal Witness:

	I have no comment because I do not want to be misquoted.

I also believe that preliminary reports by police officials have disproved these claims.  I also believe that leaders of the Democratic Party, the National Party and some in the IFP, have actually been approached by police and have not been able to back up their claims.

The manner in which this matter has been handled gives concern for a number of reasons.

The article seems to have been timed to induce a debate to coincide with the Nkabinde trial.  Hence when the DP's initial request failed, certain members of the IFP claimed to have had more evidence to resuscitate the issue of the special parliamentary sitting.  It is these members whose conduct I believe needs to be scrutinised as they are involved in a deliberate effort to improve their declining popularity in the party.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  These members are uncertain of their future, but worse still, they have embarked on a course to derail the peace process and create instability in the Province at all costs.  The end result of the action will be the renewal of conflict amongst African people and of the action that has been called the "Seven Day War".  This is so because they undermine the black leadership, both in the ANC and the IFP, and, of course, publicly they appear to be very loyal members of the IFP, but in private they are not quite like that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  In a debate on 17 September 1997 and today it has been mentioned again, Mr Konigkramer complained about my involvement on the day of the assassination of Councillor van der Byl in Richmond.  I did not dream that he was assassinated.  I did not predict that he was assassinated.  I was informed.  I was phoned by concerned communities, of course, they were raising objections about Capt Meeding's involvement.  In fact the objections were raised and I acted here in my capacity as a community leader.  Members of the public were concerned about the involvement of Captain Meeding mainly because of the fact that there had been a controversial agreement signed between himself and Nkabinde, which the Portfolio Committee of Safety and Security had raised concerns about.  It was published, and the member, Mr Konigkramer, was part of that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Why was Mr Konigkramer raising the matter rather than the Minister of Safety and Security, Nkosi Ngubane, if this was interference?  Does Mr Konigkramer have special access to members of the Police or Intelligence?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order.  Order, please.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  What is the relationship, because he is no longer a member of the Safety and Security Portfolio Committee, yet he seems to have more information on matters of this nature than the Minister does.  He must tell this House who his contacts are and whether it is the same elements who are linked to the third force destabilising this Province.  If not so he must also tell us why he started visiting Westville Prison this year, and held discussions with Nkabinde in prison.  Do the current allegations emanate from those discussions.

AN HON MEMBER:  They are working together.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  What is Mr Konigkramer's relationship with Mr Nkabinde?   Mr Konigkramer had vociferously opposed Mr Nkabinde, calling for a Commission of Enquiry in Richmond, but since ~Nkabinde~ has been expelled from the ANC, and was proven to be working with the third force, he finds him acceptable.  It does not make sense, Mr Speaker.

The second member of the House who had also been quite active is the hon member, Mr Powell.  Incidentally, both these members are feared within the IFP.  We do not quite know why.  Both of them had been keen to have this special Legislature sitting, to discuss a newspaper rumour.  They also wanted to utilise the parliamentary privilege to make unfounded allegations as what we have just heard now.  

In fact, incidentally, I also want to know if the member, Mr Konigkramer, can actually name which member phoned the police?  I want to just state for the record that I had nothing to do with the case of those robberies that the member spoke about.

I just want to give another example.  From 13 January, when this matter was making its round, this issue of the ANC gang, so-called, 19 members of the IFP were killed in Mpumalanga Township alone, in an internal conflict.  The matter has not received similar enthusiasm from the press and the same members.  If their concern was the loss of life, particularly for their members, why have they not called for an urgent special parliamentary sitting?  Whilst the ANC understands the sensitive nature of the conflict, and is working very hard to work with the IFP leadership locally to resolve the problem, these members are acting in a very strange and inconsistent manner by chasing imaginary issues and disregarding issues of serious conflict and the death of so many people.

It is also well-known that Mr Powell, the hon member, was a member of the South African Police Special Branch.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  And established a right-wing student organisation in the university before he joined the IFP.  We also do not know whether he was still working for the Special Branch when he joined the IFP.  When ~Nkabinde~ was expelled he publicly expressed support for the man who, up to that stage, he had pretended was his lifelong opponent.

The ANC published a list of about seven serving Security Force members who were Nkabinde's handlers.  The list included Security Branch members such as Mr Brooks and Mr Morris.  It had also been established that these handlers had handled political leaders from several political parties simultaneously.  We have also noted the close relationship between these individuals and hon member, Mr Powell, which has been quite strong very lately.  Have they been supplying him with information?  What is going on?  I mean who is handling who?

We are also aware that there has been a conspiracy hatched, and I am surprised that the member did not mention this, by certain elements in the police, and I am saying elements because it's not the whole police force, who actually wanted to implicate other leaders of the ANC and myself to discredit certain witnesses and the ANC and strengthen Nkabinde's defence.

On 5 February 1998, the hon member, Mr Powell, we have information that he had actually, in the company of a UDM member, Sifiso Bhengu, in the parliamentary buildings and some other location in Pietermaritzburg, had a meeting with an ANC member whom he had tried to convince to make statements against myself and other ANC leaders under the mistaken belief that the member was a UDM supporter.  In this discussion we are told that the member had actually confirmed that he had had contact with Mr Nkabinde who had actually asked him to contact the particular member of the ANC.

Serious allegations have also been published about the hon member, Mr Powell.  There was a case, for example, where he was charged with possession of illegal weapons.  We have not heard anything about it, and if people are so fastidious and so meticulous to follow up the cases, can they please check out exactly and inform us what happened to that particular case?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  There are also allegations of links with Eugene de Kok at Vlakplaas.  Can you tell us, who is Mr Powell?  Mr Konigkramer said in the other debate that there was no proof of a third force, and, of course, we have admitted, and all of us have accepted, that Eugene de Kok is the master of the third force.  The ANC has got information and evidence that Eugene de Kok is said to have visited this Province several times at the invitation of Mr Powell who is also alleged to have approached Mr de Kok and asked him for arms and ammunition.  De Kok agreed, loaded and delivered six trucks of the following weapons:

	Hundreds of anti-tank mines, hand grenades, hundreds of rifle grenades.
	Thousands of AK47 rifles, R-1 rounds and rifle grenades.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

AN HON MEMBER:  Where are they?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):

	RPG-7 rockets, mortars, explosives, anti-personnel mines, RPG rocket launchers.

These weapons were delivered to this Province.  As the ANC, Mr Speaker, we have been aware of this information, but we had not pursued the matter because we were discussing peace with the IFP.  We think that Mr Powell does not care about the peace.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  He has access to such weapons.  No wonder he refused to appear before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Where are these weapons now?  Where are they kept and why were they not returned?  Who is keeping them?  The ANC calls upon the Premier to investigate the whereabouts of these weapons as they pose the biggest threat to peace and stability in this Province.  I am sure Archbishop Tutu will welcome the hon member to the TRC with open arms if he is prepared to come and participate in national reconciliation.

The ANC has a capacity for more information even about other members, but we have always handled such information with care and sensitivity, because we believe the IFP leadership, especially from the African communities, have first-hand experience of burying our people and PEACE has a special and practical meaning to them.  It is most unfortunate that these two members are white, because it is very clear to us that they are ANTI-PEACE.  Their approach to matters is not in keeping with the spirit of peace and cooperation that we have experienced in many spheres.

Therefore, in conclusion, Mr Speaker, I would like to say that Peace has many enemies, and attacks on the peace process will come under different guises.  In the activities of these members we are beginning to see a conduct that will tear this Province apart, undermine the achievements that this multi-party democracy has achieved ever since and the process of co-operation that has started.  We must protect peace and stability.

I want to thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  We will now proceed.  The next person to address the House is the hon Mr Haygarth.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order in relation to Rule 67, time limits for speeches, and they should be in relation to the list submitted to the Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I have the list of time allocated by the Whips for this debate, and the DP was allocated five minutes, the other minority parties, three minutes each.  When we look at the list, we find now the DP has nine minutes allocated.  I must say that we object to this kind of manipulation behind the scenes by other parties, before they come to the Speaker. The DP has two members.  We are allocated nine minutes.  The National Party allocated nine minutes.  The party will address you on this after this sitting.  We object to this manipulation.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Roger Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, you will be aware that I have submitted to you a corrected time list indicating a decreased Democratic Party time and an increase for the other three members.  Thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  It is white on white violence.  (LAUGHTER)

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  May I also take this opportunity to stress the importance of submitting a list and abiding by it, not the idea of actually writing to me here to say you alter this and the other.  This has become a public document.  It is not for the House and no man may surreptitiously alter and change people as well as time.  

Mr Haygarth, it is your turn, sir, and you have four minutes. It is just now twenty-five past twelve.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  This conflict between the two major parties in this House is something which is an on-going battle.  If you recall in 1995 this type of allegation was thrown across the House, was thrown across the Safety and Security Committee, to such an extent that a Sub-Committee was appointed to investigate the problems of violence and no-go areas in Richmond.

There they had years of internal violence.  It was a political power struggle between the parties.  Ultimately, a Sub-Committee was formed which I had the misfortune to chair.  Arising from that, names began to come forward.  Names were repeated, allegations were made.  What happened, Mr Speaker?  The truth ultimately came out.

The Committee received a document from Group 9 and names were put forward, this was exposed, and the ultimate result is that recently the courts found three people, whose names were common practice to be mentioned in the Sub-Committee.  Three people were convicted of the murder, the callous murder, of three policemen acting in the course of their duties.  The outcome for those three was life imprisonment.  Who they were, what party they were, that is a matter for others to decide.

Another case is pending.  So what we have are allegations which are thrown around this House and in the Committees when they are investigated in a proper manner.  In the Richmond case, the President of this country himself, nominated a policeman to bring results forward, and those results have had an impact on the peace process in Richmond.

But what do we have now?  The freedom fighters won their battle.  The 1994 election and black majority government resulted in us having a Constitution with a leading human rights chapter within it.  That is what we fought for.  Human rights, but those human rights today are still being abused, Mr Speaker.  Good and innocent people, are murdered. People who are in the delivery of money are being murdered.  

Crime, whatever it be, escalates, and one knows that in other parts of the world terrorist organisations used raids on police armouries and on banks to produce the necessary funds for their activities.  It is common knowledge that that is the way the terrorist organisations operate.

THE SPEAKER:  You have a minute, Mr Haygarth.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you.  But now the Richmond situation is being transferred to Pietermaritzburg.  Has the black ink approving human rights been converted to a bloody, gory, red signifying the advent of terrorists pillaging and plundering, arms caches, money heists, terror amongst the people, murders?  

The Freedom Front, who continue fighting after democracy has been won are terrorists fighting democracy.  

I want to say the people of this Province want peace.  The people of Richmond fought for peace.  The people in Ireland are fighting for peace.  Burundi and Rwanda, all of the people are backing peace, and I believe that in this Province we have got to cease this on-going conflict by whosoever it is being stimulated, and achieve peace for all of our people in this Province who are looking desperately for it.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Now I will call upon the hon Mr Nel who has six minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, it is a pity indeed that a matter of this serious nature only gets to be debated in a half-hearted fashion like this, more than two months after it was first raised in the public eye.  We, as the Democratic Party, will stand by our initial call and the reasons for that call.

We did not make claims that certain people were specifically involved, as was alleged by the hon Minister earlier, and then he said that we could not substantiate those when we were approached by police.  We simply responded to very serious allegations in the media implicating even members of this very House, and we said at the very least the truth must come out.

Mr Speaker, it is a matter of record that on many issues over decades and centuries the truth has often eventually come out because people probe and probe and insist on investigations.  You will think back on the famous "Information Scandal" and all sorts of scandals in the past that eventually bring up the truth because it was first probed in the legislatures of the time in this country and in all countries around the world.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR W U NEL:  I will respond to that hon member, in a minute.  That is what we want to see happen now, and for that reason we are going to call on the Premier once again, please, in terms of section 127(2)(e) of the Constitution, in view of the very serious allegations that have been made, that the Premier should institute a Commission of Inquiry so that we can actually pursue this matter and get to the bottom of the very serious allegations that are being made across this floor.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR W U NEL:  Sir, there are many of them.  When we first raised the issue, on one occasion I was accosted by members of the ANC on the steps of Parliament, and accused that my party had in fact instructed the Natal Witness to publish the article that was published on 13 January.

MR R M BURROWS:  That is a lie.

MR W U NEL:  Now I challenge that party.  I challenge that party to produce any information, any information to substantiate that claim.

AN HON MEMBER:  Burrows must get it.

MR R M BURROWS:  That is a lie.

THE SPEAKER:  Just on that issue, just a minute, please.  Take your seat for the moment.  

MR W U NEL:  I beg your pardon, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  The word, to say that a person is a liar is not so parliamentary, after all.  Anyhow, I would accordingly ask Mr Burrows to withdraw that.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I didn't say a person's name.  I didn't indicate.  I said that was a lie.  That was a lie, and if the hon member at whom I am pointing takes it upon himself to regard it as a lie, that is his own conscience.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  No, I will not allow any discussion on the matter when Mr Nel is holding the floor.  Please proceed, Mr Nel.  You have been interrupted already.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  We are grateful to you that you requested the hon Mr Burrows to withdraw his statement.  He refused to do so.  I think that is in contempt of you, Mr Speaker.  I, through you, request Mr Burrows to withdraw his statement because, although he did not mention a name, he clearly pointed at a particular member in the ANC caucus.  Does the hon Mr Burrows think we are stupid?

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes.  (LAUGHTER)

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Roger Burrows, I had requested you to withdraw the statement.  There is just no credit to be passed.  It will cost you nothing.  Please do so that we can proceed.

MR R M BURROWS:  Sorry, Mr Speaker, you are asking me to withdraw what, sir?

THE SPEAKER:  That is all.

MR R M BURROWS:  To withdraw what?  What must I withdraw?

THE SPEAKER:  That you said it was a lie.

MR R M BURROWS:  No, I said that the statement was a lie, and I hold by that, the statement was a lie, and I will not withdraw that, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR G S BARTLETT:  On a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, I think every member in this hon House heard what the hon member, Mr Burrows, said.  The colleague had said there was a statement in the press, and then someone from these benches said that it was the hon member who tried to persuade the Witness or instructed the Witness to print the article.  Mr Burrows said that that statement was a lie.  He did not say any hon member of this House, was a liar, sir.  He said the statement was a lie.  So, Mr Speaker, I stand with my colleague here.  

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.

MR G S BARTLETT:  He did not call any individual a liar, sir.  He should not have to withdraw.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  We will leave the matter - no, no, no, wait a minute.  No, let us not be bogged down over this issue.  I will withdraw my instructions to Mr Burrows, and we carry on, please.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  No, I have withdrawn the instruction to Mr Burrows to apologise on the grounds that he did not refer to any hon member as a liar.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, you know, I am sorry to actually address you on this point, but we are actually undermining the very essence and fabric of this House.  If a member can defy the Speaker of this House then I do not know what we have come to, and I really must register my serious objection to what the hon Mr Burrows is doing in this House.  

Hon Mr Bartlett clearly did not see that Mr Burrows was directly pointing at a member of the ANC caucus.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR G S BARTLETT:  He said that article was a lie.

AN HON MEMBER:  Cover-up.

THE SPEAKER:  Let us just get over this point.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Order, please.  Yes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, as you know, it is unparliamentary for a member to call another member a liar.  Now what I would suggest can perhaps resolve this question is for Mr Burrows to indicate that the statement, that he referred to, was not true, but that he had no intention of calling any member in the House a liar.  I would think if Mr Burrows says that we can proceed.

THE SPEAKER:  Will Mr Burrows go that far?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I am quite content that the statement was a lie.  I will not even look, point, or otherwise indicate at anybody except yourself, sir.  The statement was a lie.

THE SPEAKER:  I hope when you are pointing at me you are not saying that I am a liar.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Gentlemen, let us be practical, lets go ahead with the business, please.  Mr Nel, you have been deprived of - oh, I am sorry, on a point of order.

MRS F X GASA:  I am very concerned that we are now allowing a situation in this House, when other members are speaking, we quietly in a disciplined and parliamentary way give them time to use their time profitably, and when other members come up, racial statements, dilly-dallying comes to the fore.  Could we, please, really say let everybody be able to speak and then at a given time we will be able to deal with what we want to deal with.  But right now we cannot deal with these tactics that are coming up.  This is just a gimmick.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  In fact at the beginning I had pointed out that nobody should be interfered with when speaking.  He has a political right, and no heckling.  Thank you very much, Mrs Gasa.

Let me say it here again, the hon member, Mr Nel, has in fact lost about five minutes whilst we were settling this issue.  I do not consider that he should be penalised and deprived of that time because of what happened.  He should be compensated for that.  In fact he had only about three minutes, so carry on.

MR W U NEL:  How much do I have left?

AN HON MEMBER:  Five minutes.

THE SPEAKER:  Please, Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, having watched what has just happened here, I can state categorically that I believe the Witness at least was right about one thing when they said whatever the truth about ANC Select may be, it will not be coming out in a Special Parliamentary debate.  It is pity that we have to end up in this kind of situation.  Yet, again, I would say that that is another reason why the hon Premier should seriously consider instituting a commission to investigate this properly.

I have been accused even of being involved in a conspiracy with the hon member, Mr Powell.  I submit to this House that there are at least a dozen members of the ANC who have got far closer daily links with Mr Powell than I have ever had.

MR R M BURROWS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR W U NEL:  I do not socialise with him, not necessarily for any bad reasons, but we see very little of each other, and most certainly, I have not been involved in a conspiracy with him on this particular issue.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  One minute over.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, it is also a matter of record that a current chairman of a branch in ~Dambuza~ actually says that he is not standing for the leadership again because his family are being intimidated.  He is quoted as saying, and this also needs to be verified, that if the leadership is serious about the conflict, it can be resolved.  It begs the question, sir, why has this on-going violence in Dambuza not been resolved over a matter of some decades.

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up, Mr Nel.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon Mr Ntombela who must address us for four minutes.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, sir, and your hon House.  I am still trembling in fear as a result of the speech given by my colleague, Mr Konigkramer.  He has reminded me of another day, last year, on the day we were at Bulwer.  That is where I saw the hon Khabazela Mkhize with a firearm in his hand.  I put the question in Parliament and said, as he was in possession of a firearm, who was he going to shoot?

That is what I am reminded of, that something is afoot that we are not aware of.  Right there, Mr Speaker, it became apparent that the vehicle in which the hon member was travelling, was shot at.  Today the truth has become apparent, that there was no vehicle that was shot at.  It was shot by them.  The hon member was present, that is Khabazela.  They shot the vehicle themselves, then they said they were shot at by members of the IFP.

Mr Speaker, it is true to say that for a long time, people have been killed here in South Africa, especially here in KwaZulu-Natal.  There was a lot of talk emanating from that side, from our colleagues in the ANC, saying people were being destroyed by violence and the IFP.

Mr Speaker, the Bible says, "Nothing will be hidden in eternity".  Everything will become clear, as clear as daylight, as clear as crystal.  Today, the truth has become apparent, Mr Speaker.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute, Mr Ntombela.  I am getting tired of the remarks from that last row.  Please, I thought we were going to co-operate and make this a success by being honourable enough, co-operative enough, to allow whoever speaks.  I have actually been commending the House for allowing Dr Zweli Mkhize to complete his statement with no interference.  Why must the back row of the ANC continually have remarks?  If they want to pass remarks amongst themselves, I do not want to hear that sort of thing.  The very fact that what I hear from here is an indication that people are not prepared to be co-operative.  I would normally have expected the ladies to be more co-operative than what we are having at the present moment.

Thank you so much.  Will you please carry on?  Now I have taken your time.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Now three minutes.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, if I say that the truth will become apparent, I am saying that the Government of the ANC, has used strategies, they have passed laws, to the effect that even if you have killed people, even if you have killed 5,000 people, you will not be hanged.  Even if you have raped 5,000 people, you will not be hanged, because it knows that it is keeping its own rogues who are doing these things.

The question today is this, this crime that is so rife, which is now more than the violence that started in 1983 until today, why is crime greater than violence today?  There is no more violence, Mr Speaker, what we are seeing is crime.  Who is this who is committing robberies on a daily basis?  These people that are committing robberies, are committing robberies because they know that their father says even if they commit three robberies in one day, they will not be hanged.

They do this brazenly because they have been told that it does not matter what you do, you will not be hanged.  Let the death penalty return.  Mr Speaker, when you come back to the Commission, this Commission which is allegedly a Truth Commission, I am surprised, what sort of Government would call other parties and say, let them go and tell the truth at the Commission?

Then, when it is the ANC, they do not go to tell the truth.  As far as they are concerned, their matter was discussed privately and they were granted amnesty.  This is a trick, Mr Speaker.  We must examine what type of Government this is.

Because the people of the National Party, when they speak and say, their matter must be taken to court, I, David Ntombela, say, I am in agreement with them, that they should go to court and the people of the ANC should go and tell the truth. Because things are the way that they are, the whole country, and the violence was caused by the Congress.  Now, things have been shifted.  Not it is being said that it is the other parties that are violent.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Two minutes, please, Mr Ntombela.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am very sad if we are going to go to the 1999 election while there are still issues that had been hidden, things that have been done by the Congress.  It has been said there, that members of the IFP that were killed, killed each other.  I am surprised that as far as Dambuza is concerned, who was killing the members of the ANC, could it be that it was members of the IFP who were killing people at Dambuza?

The people of the ANC should say who killed them, and what they were shot with.  Mr Speaker, look at Richmond.  Sifiso attacked my colleague in Parliament.  He was protected by  the hon J J, the hon member, and others of the ANC, saying Sifiso was innocent.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  One minute now.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
TRANSLATION:  Today, when Sifiso, when the dog has bitten its owner, they are now the first ones to run and say Sifiso must be arrested.  The dog is now biting its owner.  Now, they have rejected Sifiso.  The truth is clear, it is apparent.  This Government of the ANC does not exist, it is finished.  The ANC is finished.  Thank you. [LAUGHTER]  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you, over and out.  Now I will call upon the hon Mr Rajbansi who, according to this, has only three minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  We must in a united voice condemn violence and any attempts to obstruct justice in our country, from whichever quarter the violence comes and from whichever quarter allegations of the obstruction of justice comes.  

I want to appeal to the hon Premier that a Commission of Enquiry is a waste of taxpayers' money.  In Richmond the police were called in, a super cop from outside, and you saw the results.  Very, very serious allegations were made and serious counter-allegations have been made.  We cannot allow this slinging match to continue in the interest of the excellent work that is being done by political leaders for peace and stability in this Province.

But why I am amazed, Mr Speaker, is that we had the circular for a special session, to discuss a request by the hon Mr Nel.  I thought that was being transferred and Mr Nel is going to be the mover of this motion.  I am not going to pass any judgment whether there is any collusion between the hon Mr Arthur Konigkramer and Mr Nel because previously, which is unanswered, the hon Mr Konigkramer leaked a very highly confidential document, a privileged document, that was privy only to the members of the Safety and Security Committee, which embarrassed two Ministers of the IFP, which embarrassed them, and that is still hanging over their heads.

I want the hon Premier, and every hon member of the IFP, to know that there are destabilisers within these parties?  I got an anonymous fax that I must embarrass Dr Buthelezi in public, and if I give those facts to Dr Buthelezi he will trace the person who leaked that to me, and I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that he is an hon member of the IFP who does not belong to the African origin, coloured origin, or Indian origin.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up, Mr Rajbansi.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will call upon Mrs Downs also for three minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I am shocked and I am horrified, firstly by the comments that have just been made by the hon member, Mr Rajbansi, the earlier ones by Mr Mkhize, on the racial issue.  My President is black and we are non-racist in our party, and I am sick of hearing these kinds of things flying around this House, accusing people.....

MR A RAJBANSI:  A point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order, Mrs Downs.

MR A RAJBANSI:  If God had made me an Indian, if God had made people white, it is not my fault.  It is the wisdom of the Almighty, but I have never made a racial remark.  She must withdraw that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  No, no, no.  Mr Rajbansi, let us get this thing straight.  That is not a point of order.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  You are arguing the point now and I think we are going to use the Rules against people who abuse an opportunity of a point of order to make it a matter of argument.  I would least expect Mr Rajbansi, of all people, to do just that what he has done.  He has gone below himself.  As your Ladyship pleases.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, there are a lot of ridiculous accusations flying around this House, and a lot of mud flying around which is leaving us all dirty, and I think that is nonsense.  

It is the responsibility of this House to investigate serious allegations of misconduct by whoever, and it is our responsibility to represent the people of this Province, which I am going to try and do right now.  

The people of this Province are sick to death of political violence.  They are sick to death of the issues that are on-going all the time.  I do not think that this discussion has helped matters.  I have not heard one person come up with constructive solutions on how to deal with the issues.  

Mr Speaker, I am actually feeling quite strongly about this.  I am battling actually to even get my words out.  We cannot go on in this Province with internecine fighting.  I remember Richmond.  I sat on that Sub-Committee, and the ANC have got short memories.  They defended Mr Nkabinde to the hilt in that Committee.  I would also say that the IFP have got short memories over that Richmond issue.

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute, Mrs Down.  There is a point of order.  Yes, Mr Powell.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, I distinctly heard a member of the opposite side say that this was a stupid debate.  Is the member insinuating that I, as the person, who asked for this debate am stupid?

THE SPEAKER:  Will your Ladyship proceed, please.  Let us get away from the idea of calling each other names.  The word, stupid, is not to say it is unparliamentary, but it is quite annoying.  [LAUGHTER]

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Please, for the sake of good relationships, which is what this Province stands for, let us avoid making such remarks.  As your Ladyship pleases.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, at the time of Richmond, we, in the ACDP, also made a very strong call for a Commission of Inquiry because it seemed that according to the Group 9 report that there was a much wider issue than just Richmond.  Again, we are going to support the DP's call for a Commission of Inquiry, and that is the cause that I have with the IFP, that despite the fact that there was evidence of collusion between political parties and the police, evidence of no-go areas, and so on, that Commission of Inquiry was not called for.  

I wonder how many people have died and will continue to die because we have not addressed the issue properly.  I would like to ask that we all apply our minds seriously to this issue.  Instead of calling each other names and flinging about racial epithets and pointing fingers, that we sit down and find a way to deal with it, and to do it correctly.  

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up, Mrs Downs.

MRS J M DOWNS:  We need to be peace-makers, and not peace-keepers.  You cannot have peace if you cover things up.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  The hon, the Premier, please.

THE PREMIER:  This issue of commissions of inquiry has been repeated over and over again, and yet I have not received a single document stating the terms of reference for such a commission of inquiry.  The call is just made in open speech, in vacuo and I am supposed to know what is in the members' minds.  Please, the Sub-Committee that deals with this issue must come up with clear terms of reference within the competencies that this Province has so that we can know precisely how to deal with the issue.   

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I think at this time we are at a point where I think we must adjourn to be in time for 2 p.m and then carry on the discussion.  It is about five minutes to one and the person to speak in terms of the Order Paper here has got 13 minutes.  I cannot, within five minutes, accommodate the 13 minutes.  So I will ask that the House adjourns and to resume at 2 p.m. sharp.

	BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 12:55
	RESUMED AT 14:00

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Powell to address the House for 13 minutes.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, hon Speaker.  I hope it is a lucky 13.  Hon Speaker, first of all, in my address I do not want to play the man, but rather play the ball.  

The ANC claims to have a proud history of armed struggle.  This description of the activities of its armed wing, ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~, is deceptively simple and conceals more than it says about the activities of the organisation and its members.  I want to suggest to this House, that whatever its agenda and objectives were at the time of its formation, by the time liberation arrived, it had become a threat to the very principles of democracy which the founding fathers of the ANC had embraced.   

It is not within the scope of this debate to examine the slide into the criminality of many of its members which is best symbolised by the arrest of ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ commander, Robert McBride, and the growing body of information linking ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~members to armed robberies across the country.  I wish to focus on what has happened in the Midlands of KwaZulu-Natal in recent years as symptomatic of this decline into criminality.  In doing so I must stress that this issue first surfaced when ANC residents of no-go areas approached members of the IFP, including myself, and asked for help.  Victims of crimes and their families who lived behind the invisible walls of ANC ghettos, where years of lawlessness and the drive for ungovernability had devastated communities and left citizens with little or no protection from the police.  

Mr Speaker, I must confess that sitting across the table from ANC members who had for years been my adversaries was a unique and humbling experience.  These were people who were so desperate that they were even willing to come to their most vocal opponents for help.  They told us of repeated meetings with all levels of the ANC leadership in an attempt to root out the criminal elements in the ANC only to find, at best, indifference and, at worst, indications of complicity on the part of these officials.   It is these people who are the real reason for today's debate.

A useful starting point in an examination of the degeneration of ~Umkhonto~  ~eSizwe's~structures in the Midlands is the 1992 killing of ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ Regional Commander Mandla "Ni" Hadebe in an ambush in Imbali.  At the time of his death Hadebe was awaiting trail for his role in the brutal murder of three school children.  He died not far from the place where he had in fact carried out this dastardly deed.  The assailants who carried out this attack have never been brought to justice, but they reportedly include two well-known ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members who are now serving as members of the South African Police Services National Protection Services, guarding prominent national leaders.  Hadebe's death is significant to this debate for two reasons, firstly, this great "lion" of the armed struggle who, no doubt, was the survivor of many encounters with the enemy died at the hands of members of his own organisation.  Secondly, his death seems to have ushered in the beginnings of the real disintegration of ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~'s military structures in the Midlands.

Hadebe's replacement as Harry Gwala's military commander was Escort Self-Defence Unit commander and ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ member, Richard Ntele Sikhosana, who currently serves as a major in the South African National Defence Force.  Under his command, ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ units in the greater Pietermaritzburg area were to degenerate into lawlessness and outright criminality and conduct a reign of terror, which has left many dead and wounded, and has contributed directly to the unacceptably high levels of criminality in this area.  One of ~Sikhosana's first major tasks was to prepare ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members for integration into the National Peace Keeping Force.  The list of ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members from the Midlands put forward for integration by the ANC reads like a who's who of the criminals of the area.  What sets these crimes apart from many of the murders and killings committed by ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ is, firstly, that they did not happen during the period of the so-called armed struggle, but during the term of office of this Government of Provincial Unity. Secondly, the role of these individuals, who I will deal with, who served as VIP bodyguards to senior ANC officials in the Midlands.

It is important to note that during the period which followed the unbanning of the ANC and preceded the democratic elections, ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ activity inside the country was stepped up.  We now know that thousands of ill trained Self Defence Unit members were taken to training camps in the Transkei and countries in Africa for further training.  These  Self-Defence members had been trained in the Midlands at Harry Gwala's military training base at Swanzwile Mountain behind Dambuza where ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members like Mduduzi Kheswa, erstwhile bodyguard of Sifiso Nkabinde, and Gwala's own bodyguards, Innocent Ngcobo and Bheki Phungula, conducted training of ANC Self-Defence Unit members.  Training also took place in Willowfontein under the direction of ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members, Bongani Ngcobo and Bheki Nzimande.  ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ quartermaster, Dirk Mhlongo, kept the weapons used by the Self Defence Units in this training which took place at Willowfontein.  ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members who emerged from the Willowfontein Self Defence Units were later to play a crucial role in criminality in the area.  Military training also took place throughout the Midlands under the direction of Transkei Defence Force officer, Gracious Shoba, ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ commander, Ntele Sikhosana, and ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ officer, Thabiso Mahlobo, also known as Skhuselo Msibi at locations near Richmond, Bulwer, Loskop and Impendle.  Thousands of Self-Defence Unit members were hurriedly trained and sent to Uganda and then later repatriated back into the country in time to be integrated into the National Peace Keeping Force.  Many ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members were also trained by other ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ instructors like Langelake Gumede, Nkosinathi Mkhize and "Zo" Kheswa.

Mr Speaker, we may well ask ourselves what happened to these highly militarised young men and women on their return to South Africa.  Some were integrated into the South African Police Services, and the majority into the South African National Defence Force.  In 1995, following a visit to Wallmanstal as a member of a parliamentary group investigating the mutiny of ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members, I issued a statement warning of the consequences for this Province of the mass desertion of thousands of former ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members.  I was lambasted by the late Mr Harry Gwala and threatened with law suits.  Time has proved that my fears were well founded.  Many of the ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ members who have emerged as key players in criminal activities are drawn from the ranks of these men and women who were unsuccessfully integrated into the National Defence Force.   

As this lawlessness spread throughout the Midlands a pattern emerged.  Fighting between rival ANC elements began in Dambuza with pitched battles being fought between rival groups, and later spread to Imbali in what is now known as the Phenduka/Vietnam war which engulfed the lives of thousands of ANC supporters and added to the misery of people suffering from the violence between the ANC and the IFP.  Similar killings took place in Willowfontein where People's Courts executed an increasing number of people as the ANC "cleaned house".  The consequences of this growing violence made itself felt in Greytown with the murder of ANC leader, Solomon Mzolo, in internal conflict.  Perhaps the best known example of this disintegration was the conflict which emerged in Richmond.  The arrest and prosecution of ANC councillor, Thami Xulu, on many counts of murder, attempted murder, arson and illegal possession of firearms as a result of the internal conflict in Dambuza, and the arrest and prosecution of Sifiso Nkabinde, are further indications of the malaise which has infected the ANC's Midlands structures.

THE SPEAKER:  Two minutes, please.

MR P POWELL:  Mr Speaker, these development would in themselves not have been so significant if it were not for the fact that the leadership at the highest level in the Midlands assembled around them a collection of the most feared ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ fighters to protect themselves from attack.  I must hasten to add that very often this was not for fear of attack by ~Inkatha~, but for protection against rival elements within the ANC.  In doing so, they associated themselves with elements in ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ which have been linked to a variety of crimes.  As recently as last year, a leading newspaper in the region carried claims by the residents of Dambuza that bodyguards of the hon Minister of Health were delivering weapons to one faction in the Dambuza conflict, and had been involved in an attack on the mourners at the funeral of Wellington Ntombela.  Bodyguards of SACP leader, Blade Nzimande, and recently "redeployed" MP, Shakes Cele, are amongst those who have been linked to criminal activities in such areas as Smero.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member to wind up, please.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you very much.  Hon Speaker, the list of these people and the crimes which they have been associated with is long.  I have purposely avoided focusing on political crimes and looked entirely at criminal activities.  They involve pension pay-point robberies, bank heists, murders and rapes.  Hon Speaker, I will table the details of those allegations in the House.  Thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

MR V C XABA:  Mr Speaker.  Will the hon member take a question?  

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon member take a question?  You will take a question.

MR V C XABA:  Mr Speaker, if the hon member believes the information to be true, why does the hon member fail to make submissions to the Truth Commission?  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  That is the point.  It does mean that the hon member now is being given more time than he is entitled to.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, hon Speaker.  I will attempt, to the best of my ability, to answer the hon member's question.

Hon Speaker, the reality is that the institutions of State, including the TRC, are directly linked to what has happened in the Midlands.  There are senior members of the TRC who have been implicated in the violence in the Natal Midlands.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR P POWELL:  When it comes to the security forces, I have reliable information that the most senior member of the CIS in this Province, the very person who supplies members of the opposition with information about our activities, has instructed members of the police to make sure that this investigation is squashed to prevent embarrassment to his organisation, the ANC.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR P POWELL:  This man is the former commander of DIS in the Midlands, Raymond Lala.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up.  Order, order, please.  On a point of order, or what?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Two members of the IFP this morning in this debate have said they will table additional information.  If they want to waste paper they are welcome, but the official record of this House is the speeches actually made.  Any other paper floating around is not a document emanating from this House.  It has no status whatsoever.  I might as well pass around my notes as well.

THE SPEAKER:  May I enquire from the hon Whip whether that is a point of order, or what?  Is it not an argument?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  It is a point of order because I am concerned that the impression might be created that parts of the hon Mr Powell's speech that he could not make, and the same applies to the hon Mr Konigkramer, will be tabled.

THE SPEAKER:  I am afraid that is not a point of order.  It is an argument against what the party has said.  I rule as such.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  We come to the next speaker, Advocate Schutte.  Unfortunately, they give him only five minutes.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, in this debate we have heard emotional charges, personal attacks, accusations, and counter-accusations, of complicity in numerous political acts.  Political mud has been flung all over us.  I would like to submit, with respect, Mr Speaker, that this matter is far too serious to be used for political hay-making.  

Mr Speaker, what is at stake here is not the reputation of individuals or political parties.  I believe that what is at stake here is the dignity and the reputation of this House.  

AN HON MEMBER:  And the country.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  We therefore have to act with resolution to protect the interests of this House and all its members.  
What are the facts, Mr Speaker?  A responsible and highly respected newspaper of long-standing, in actual fact the oldest newspaper in the country, the Natal Witness, have made repeated allegations, that a very senior member of this House, in fact a Cabinet member, is involved and actually leading a secret armed trained political unit.  That that unit is involved in murder, robbery and rape.  That that unit is also involved in political intimidation.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, being a reputable newspaper, we can only assume, not that that is true, but that there is good reason for them to publish those allegations, those very serious allegations.  

What we have before us here in fact is then, not only involvement in planned, structured, premeditated crime, and serious criminal violence, at that, but also patently unconstitutional activity which is aimed at undermining political freedom in this country.   What I believe is very, very important is that the alleged activity does not relate to pre-democracy days, but it relates to the present, post-freedom days.  


During the freedom struggle, atrocities were committed on both sides, on all sides, and because there was a war at the time, there can be arguments in mitigation, but now at the time of full freedom and democracy there is no excuse whatsoever for political involvement in crime or political intimidation.  When freedom fighters continue to fight, after freedom, they become the enemies of freedom.

Mr Speaker, the allegations are serious and they involve a member of this House and a member of a major party.  By doing that it is implicating this House.  I believe that this House has no other choice but to institute a formal investigation into these allegations.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  I have no doubt also that the party involved would actually support such a move and welcome such an investigation because it would give them an opportunity of clearing their names.  

I consequently give formal notice that I will move in this House tomorrow:

	That this House appoints a select committee to investigate and report on the allegations contained in a report in the Natal Witness of 13 January 1998 under the heading "ANC Gang Terrorises Townships" and related matters arising there from.  

	The select committee to have powers to call witnesses and to take evidence.

The fact is, Mr Speaker, this House has been implicated.  It is the responsibility of this House to deal with the matter.  We cannot deny or avoid the issue.  Let us get down to the truth.  Let us not make judgment now.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon Mr Mkhwanazi to address us for three minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: We, of the PAC, unconditionally condemn all forms of violence be it criminal or be it political.  That is the first point.  

Mr Speaker, we have heard all this litany of accusations, counter-accusations, and so on.  I think we are on record, all the time, as having said that we are looking for a peaceful situation in our Province.  We had hoped, almost four years ago, that by this time we would not have debates like this.  As one writer says in a different context, who am I that I should complain because the wheel of fate crushes us all in turn.  Some soon, some later.  It does not matter when.  At the end it will grind us all into powder.

I am afraid, and very concerned, Mr Speaker, that issues like these come up and they pep up our emotions, and perhaps they do not get us anywhere.  Our contribution to this would be that the Premier, with his Minister for Safety and Security, should take these matters very seriously and let them be handled by the police.  We do not agree with the idea of a commission of inquiry.  I personally, as having been one of the members of a sub-committee, feel that perhaps it would not achieve what it should achieve.  I have that experience.  Therefore we do not want this thing to be left.  

Thank God for the transparency that we have, and that these things have been brought to light.  We think it is time, in a sober mood, to hand these things over to the police and let the police, who have all the resources, look into these matters.  Particularly when we are going towards elections, we are deeply concerned that there will be no free political activity.

THE SPEAKER:  Please wind up.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  We feel that our people will not have the opportunity to chose whom they want to vote for at will.  We therefore call upon the Premier, perhaps with his Minister of Safety and Security, to look into this matter in a sober mood.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now I will call upon the hon Minister of Transport to address us for 10 minutes.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will try to transport you to the truth.  [LAUGHTER]  When I studied language I always had problems with figures of speech.  There was a question that they used to ask and they wanted us to supply the figure of speech, and that question was, when did you stop beating up your wife?  It is a difficult question to answer.  It is a Catch-22.

But I want to ask that question today to two hon members, Mr Konigkramer and Mr Powell.  We had a third force member in this Chamber who was part of us.  We discovered him.  We chucked him out, but the third force has infiltrated all parties.  

Mr Konigkramer, without the knowledge of the Premier, or the leadership of the IFP, has been visiting Sifiso Nkabinde in prison, not sent by this Premier or any leader of the IFP.  The first time when he visited him there was when alarm was made that Sifiso was going to be killed in prison.  He must be transferred somewhere else.  The second time was now in support of this pseudo debate that the Democratic Party wanted to bring here, but all of it was supposed to cloud the issue of Sifiso appearing in court, and derail the peace process.  

The question is, when did you establish, hon Mr Konigkramer, the friendship with the third force member, Sifiso Nkabinde?  I submit it is long ago.  You are part of the same thing with Mr Nkabinde, the third force.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE SPEAKER:  Order.  Order, please.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  You have been part of it and it shows because whoever the handler is, he is saying that by hook or by crook, derail the peace process, because when there is peace here, there will be no place for you, because there will be no place in the ANC or IFP for warmongers, for people who make war.  That is why you go without your leader to prison to re-establish a long friendship with Sifiso Nkabinde.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  But the question also goes.....

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Would the hon member take a question?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  No.  

THE SPEAKER:  No.  That settles the matter.  

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  That is why, Mr Speaker, addressing the Premier, that same member of your party went on TV to say there was going to be a bloodbath here with Mr Waugh of the National Party.  There will be a bloodbath here if Afrikaans is withdrawn as a language of record in the National Parliament.  He was not sent by yourself, Mr Premier, through you, Mr Speaker, but he has got a different agenda, and it is not your agenda of peace.

But that question goes again to the hon member, Mr Powell.  The hon Mr Powell, you revolve around violence or violence revolves around you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  You joined the Special Branch.  The Special Branch is different from the police.  The Special Branch is not the ordinary police but is police with a political mission.  That mission took you from the Special Branch, took you to university to infiltrate student organisations, disrupt their activities for nefarious National Party purposes.  Now you are there.  What are you doing in those benches?  You have infiltrated again.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I will not take the question.

THE SPEAKER:  You will not take the question.  Carry on, Mr Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I would then read, Mr Speaker, this report, from the newspaper how a huge arm sale to KwaZulu was uncovered.  I will just read one paragraph.

	On Friday, Judge Richard Goldstone heard how KwaZulu Government official, Philip Powell.....

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.  Order, please.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):

	......who trains ~Ulundi~ Self-Protection squads approached Mr Alwin Law, Natal manager of a security company to help obtain weapons.  Those were 1 000 machine-guns.

That was frustrated because they were caught.  I will go on to the City Press.

	A fresh batch of 1 500 trainees underwent training.  Philip Powell, commander of KwaMlaba Camp, where the trainees started defence tactics, told City Press that these men signalled the end of the ANC.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I quote Mr Powell.

	The trainees are drawn throughout KwaZulu-Natal.  Each chief....

And there are 320 of them.

	Each chief or mayor provided 10 people from his area to undergo training.  They then go back to their communities, form a core leadership group that will further train the locals.

That is Mr Powell talking.  

	The trainees undergo physical training and are taught how to maintain firearms and so forth.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  What are these arms that Mr Powell is in charge of?  I go to another record.

	De Kock continued to supply weapons to ~~Inkatha~ ~long after he had left the police force in April 1993.  He also became involved in training ~Inkatha~ impis near the ~Umfolosi~ Game Reserve in Natal.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):

	Six KwaZulu Administration trucks were loaded by de Kock with arms, explosives and ammunition and driven to an ~Inkatha~ base in Natal.  De Kock said ~Inkatha~ member, Philip Powell, asked him for the arms and ammunition in order to train ~Inkatha~ Self-Protection Units.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  I am afraid I will not tolerate that.  Will you please leave the House?  Please leave the House.  This is the second warning I have given  you.

MRS F X GASA:  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Has the hon Minister finished?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  No.

THE SPEAKER:  Just one more minute.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  No, it is 10 minutes.  Is there a point of order?  I am sorry.  The light is such that I cannot see in this direction.

THE SPEAKER:  I beg your pardon?

MRS F X GASA:  I am covered by your action, Mr Speaker, thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, just one more minute now, Mr Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  No, it is 10 minutes I am speaking for.

	The weapons that Mr Powell took possession of are 700 anti-tank mines, 1 000 hand grenades, 1 400 rifle grenades, 14 000 AK47 rounds, 15 191 R-1 rounds, 182 RPGs.  

Those weapons are here.  He took possession of them.  They were not caught.  So we are now calling for a special Commission of Inquiry because when you are talking about 10 people from each ~Inkosi~ and mayor being trained, then you are talking about more than 400 000 people who have now been trained under your Province, Mr Premier.

We want a Commission of Inquiry instituted by the State President because it covers de Kock, which is not under your jurisdiction, and we want those weapons to be uncovered.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up, Mr Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  But, no, I had 10 minutes, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  No, the 10 minutes is over.  You were just left with one minute I gave you.  I said two more minutes and I said finish up.  I asked you to finish up.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  I specifically wrote down the time here.

And there is something fundamentally different between clocks there.  We have marked down on a sheet of paper here the time.  There is still three minutes left in terms of the 10 minutes required.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  No, I have got one minute here.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I really urge that you re-look at that because there is something fundamentally wrong here, Mr Speaker.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Let the Minister carry on and finish his time.  

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, could I finish, please?  Three of us are keeping time because we presumed that is exactly what would happen.  You cannot say that three different clocks here in fact suddenly are very different.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  There are three minutes left.  We kept time of that and that is excluding these interruptions that we have been getting here.  I would ask you, I would urge you, that you reconsider what you have done now because it is clear to me that you cannot be different from three members of this House.

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon member take his seat, please?  Yes, Mr Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I will then finally say that Mr Konigkramer has deliberately mislead this House.  Bright Mthembu has never been a bodyguard of Dr Mkhize.

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  He has never been.  When he said that he knew that he was not telling the truth, deliberately misleading this House.

Finally, I want to also urge members of the DP, and all other members, we have the police.  The police have visited members of the IFP and the DP and said, you say you know of hit-squad activities, tell us.  All of them were mum.  They cannot tell them.  That is why we now need a Commission of Inquiry to go into these arms that are awash, thanks to Mr Powell who brought in so many arms into this Province which can start a war.  Those of us who know war, it can go on for 10 years with the arms that he has.  That is what we want to investigate.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Time up, Mr Minister.  I will now call upon the Minister V T Zulu for eight minutes.  Now it is a minute to five to three.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, the hon Prince G L Zulu, Minister of Welfare, had to say this before he was taken away by an emergency, arguing on the lines of what happens to his Department as far as these crimes are concerned.

I have been shocked by what I have heard in this House today.  I find it unbelievable that while large numbers of old people are battling to stay alive on the pensions they earn, there are organisations and individuals with military training who are robbing this government of the meagre amounts which are set aside for pensions.  These dastardly robbers are not only stealing from this government, they are stealing from the poor.  In a very real sense they are also stealing from the poor when they rob banks.  I say so for the following reasons, Mr Speaker.

The money that is kept in banks often belongs to the poor who put their life savings in the banks.  When banks suffer robberies the cost of lending and of services must go up to make good the losses.  So in the end the poor and ordinary people lose.

The second reason why I make this statement is as follows.  The more people rob banks and rob this Government of its pension monies, the more business and foreign business, in particular, will withhold their investments.  If they do so there will be no growth in the economy and if the economy does not grow the number of unemployed will increase.  Poverty will become a vicious circle that feeds on itself.

So, Mr Speaker, those who rob banks and steal pension money make themselves guilty of treason, treason against the people of this country and treason against the poor.  These thieves and those who provide them with cover are economic saboteurs.  
As the Minister responsible for looking after the needs of the old and those less fortunate in society, I am filled with revulsion by what I have heard here today.  The time has come to root out this evil in our midst.  If we do not do so now we are destroying our future.  The youth of our country will have no future unless we, who are responsible for the government of this Province, brings back law and order.

Any society that does not look after the aged and the infirm is a society that will fail.  In fact we cannot earn the right to call ourselves civilised if we do not protect the weak.  How can we do so if people rob banks and the government of its pension monies?  

Mr Speaker, allow me to tell this House that yesterday five Swazi citizens were arrested for fraudulently claiming pensions in South Africa.  I am pleased that they have appeared in court and that they have been denied bail.  The people who have robbed banks and stolen our pension money deserve the same treatment.  Their crimes are even greater and they must end up behind bars.  Society needs to rid itself of such criminals.

We, in this Legislature, must prove to the people of this Province that we are serious about crime and that we will stamp it out.  For this reason, Mr Speaker, I formally place the following motion before this House.  I table it together with supporting documentation which I wish to be handed to the Commission:

	Given disclosures about ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~ involvement in armed robbery, and the murder of activists of the ANC and other parties, the numerous allegations of unresolved crimes, allegations implicating public representatives, and the need to promote stability and law and order in the interests of peace and development, and mindful of the general constitutional responsibility of the Minister of Safety and Security, in terms of section 207(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, No. 108 of 1996, read together with the powers given to the Province to promote law and order in terms of section 206(3) of the Constitution, this Legislature hereby calls on the Premier, in terms of section 127(e) of the Constitution, to appoint a Commission of Inquiry with the following terms of reference:

	1.	Investigate and report on whether any organisation or associated individuals are responsible for a series of armed robberies involving banks and pension pay-out points in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, details of which were revealed in a debate in Parliament on 19 March 1998.

	2.	To investigate and report on whether anyone, including members of the Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal interfered with police investigations or sought to influence the outcome of police investigations relating to those cases referred to in 1 above.

	3.	To investigate and report on whether anyone, including members of the Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal interfered with the due process of the law through the courts relating to the cases outlined to the Legislature in March 1998.

	4.	To make recommendations on any of the above matters.

Mr Speaker, I ask that the motion be put to the House tomorrow.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  We have come to the end of this debate at the present moment.  The matter will be put to the House tomorrow.  It is now 3 p.m.  Will the Chief Whip lead us now on what next to do?  Has everybody got this?  This is a report from the Portfolio Committee on Transport.  

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, before we go on to the next matter, the hon Minister Zulu has moved a motion.  The parties are negotiating.  The ANC cannot support it in its present form, but we are busy negotiating and we are trying to arrive at a motion that we can all support.  With your permission, could we deal with that matter tomorrow and then not vote on Minister Zulu's motion today?

THE SPEAKER:  The Minister had said he would put the motion tomorrow.

MR R M BURROWS:  He proposed tomorrow.

THE SPEAKER:  He proposed tomorrow.  The Minister had requested that he would put the motion tomorrow.  

MR M S C M MOTALA:  NOT ON RECORD

THE SPEAKER:  The Committee has tabled its report.  Please read the report, Mr Chairperson of the Committee.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Would you like me to read it into the record?

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, please.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Thank you.  

REPORT OF THE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT

HISTORY OF THE MATTER

Arising out of the certification of urgency provided by the Minister of Transport to the Speaker, the Speaker acting in accordance with section 120(1)(b) permitted the Bill to be introduced to the House without publication.  The said Bill was referred to the Provincial Committee on Transport for consideration.

The Transport Committee was directed by the House to hold a special meeting to decide:

1.	whether the KwaZulu-Natal Interim Minibus Taxi Bill is properly before the House, and

2.	whether the Committee is satisfied that the Bill be proceeded with.

The Committee met on 19 March 1998 at 12h50 in accordance with the House's mandate.

Mr M J Mthiyane proposed that the Committee resolve that the Bill is properly before the House but that there has been insufficient consultation and involvement with the Public.  Accordingly, the Committee resolved that the Bill be reconsidered for the purposes of public involvement, which may include advertising, public hearings and amendments of the Bill.

The Portfolio Committee resolved to support the proposal with the votes recorded as follows:

IFP	-	5 members voted in favour of the proposal
NP	-	1 member voted in favour of the proposal
ANC	-	3 members voted against the proposal
DP	-	1 member voted against the proposal

Mr Speaker, I formally move that this report be now adopted.  

THE SPEAKER:  Yes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think we cannot adopt this report or reject it without a debate.  No speakers list has been prepared and I would therefore request that the matter stand down until we can prepare a speakers list, and that we continue with the next matter on the Order Paper in the meantime.

THE SPEAKER:  The Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it is not normal, and it has never been the normal practice in this House, that a report of a Committee gets debated.  Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not.  In this case the matter has been fully debated in the Committee.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  What the ANC wish now to do is re-debate the matter that has already been partly debated in this House, already debated in the Committee yesterday and simply rehash an acrimonious debate and waste the time of this House.  There are no new matters which have not been fully aired by all the members, Mr Speaker, and I request that you put the adoption of this report to the House.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Let me hear from the hon Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the hon Chief Whip of the IFP is incorrect if he says it has been partly debated.  We have had no debate whatsoever on the report of the Committee, nor on the Taxi Bill.  We had a debate on a motion moved by the hon Mr Tarr to refer the Bill to the Committee.  It certainly is not the same thing.

This is a matter of importance.  I do not think that we can deprive members in this House of the right to voice their opinion on a matter as important as this.  It has elicited a lot of emotion and strong feelings, and to simply push it through the House with a yea or a nay is really not in the spirit of what a parliament should be.  It is actually silencing the ANC on this matter.  

I am quite happy, Mr Speaker, if you rule that this matter stands down for us to prepare a proper speakers list and that we continue with the next item on the Order Paper.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Roger Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, as I understand it, Rule 104(e) is quite explicit and it concerns motions without notice except a motion by the member in charge, which in this case is the hon Mr Motala, proposing a draft resolution on the report of a committee immediately after the debate on the report has been concluded.  So there has to be a debate on the report, after which there is a resolution, after which the House moves forward.  I agree with the hon member from the ANC in this respect.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for that, Mr Burrows.  Yes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I just want to look at it.  I suggest that we look at it from another legal angle.  The Bill is tabled for debate.  At 11:30 yesterday we referred it back to the Committee.  The Committee's report has come.  The only decision we can take is either debate the Bill or somebody moves another reference back to the Committee, because the Committee has executed the mandate we gave them at 11:30 yesterday. 

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I am in your hands.  What happens now?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Let us debate the Bill and they must decide.   

THE SPEAKER:  The ANC has complained they do not have a list for debating.  Yes, Mr IFP, have you got it?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I have looked at the Rule and listened to what Mr Burrows said, and I suppose now and again we have got to stand up and say we were wrong.  I do believe that we need to debate the motion and I would suggest that we prepare a short speakers list for tomorrow.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  It must be decided amongst you Whips whether it is today or tomorrow.  It depends whether you have the speakers or not.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I cannot negotiate across the floor of the House.  We can do it today.  I suggest the Whips adjourn and arrange it now.  In the meantime the business of the House proceed.  The next item on the Order Paper is the Youth Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  I suppose then we proceed to the next item on the Order Paper and you sort yourselves out about speakers one way or the other.  

8.4	KWAZULU-NATAL YOUTH COMMISSION BILL.

THE SPEAKER:  I have a list here on the Youth Commission Bill.  Yes, I do have a list here and the first speaker is the Premier with unlimited time.  On a point of order from the Chief Whip, yes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, as I understand it you asked the hon member, Mr Xaba, to leave the House, leaving the House means leaving the precincts of Parliament.  I do believe he is still present in this Chamber.

THE SPEAKER:  I suppose I will have to send him out.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  I am in no position to assess, as I am here, whether the hon member is in the precincts or not.  In the meantime whilst that is being gone into is there any reason why we cannot continue with the debate?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, on the point raised by Mr Tarr, I just want to ask for a ruling.  In spite of my repeated requests, the precincts of this House has never been defined legally.  There must be legal boundaries, and it has never been defined.  I refer to an Appeal Court decision on a matter in which I was ...... and the Appeal Court ....

THE SPEAKER:  What was the decision of the Appeal Court?

MR A RAJBANSI:  We have not defined what the precincts of this House are.

THE SPEAKER:  Precincts of the House?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Is it the concrete fence?  Is it this wall?  We have got executive buildings here, too.  We have not defined it legally.  

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, you are not telling me that because of that, it is not possible to send the man out?

MR A RAJBANSI:  No, I am not saying so.  

THE SPEAKER:  No, I have sent the man out.  Because of that, therefore it is not possible for a man to be out?  I rather think this is a far-fetched argument.   Be that as it may, I have given an order and the man is out.  If in fact Mr Rajbansi thinks he should be two miles away from here, so be it.  I do not think we should waste the time of this House on that issue.  I will go further and say if the man was reasonable enough he would write a letter, if he is sorry about it, and then we can allow him in.  Let us not waste the time of the House, please.

Mr Premier, I asked you to address the House.  

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, if the House would permit I would like to table the report of the Portfolio Committee on the Youth Bill.  If I may proceed to present that report to the House.

Thank you.  Mr Speaker, the Premier's Portfolio Committee, having considered the KwaZulu-Natal Youth Commission Bill, referred to it on 1 December 1997, reports as follows.

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order, I thought at least the Minister would introduce the Bill and Mr Aulsebrook would talk after that.  How do you work it out?  I thought the Minister would in fact read the Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, thank you for the privilege in allowing me to present the KwaZulu-Natal Youth Bill.  I presume it is appropriate that the Chairperson of the Premier's Portfolio Committee should clarify that the Portfolio Committee approves that this Bill be presented, and that the Bill is in order.  

THE SPEAKER:  The Bill has been presented.  Yes, Mr Aulsebrook.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, the report of the Committee has been circulated and we hereby table the report to the House for their consideration.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The Premier.  

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, hon members, before I turn to the details of what is contained in this Bill, I would like to give hon members a brief overview of the history of this Bill which has led us to the stage that we have reached today.

The process of drafting legislation to provide for a Youth Commission was commenced by my predecessor, Dr Frank Mdlalose, who considered it essential that active steps be taken to promote the interests of our youth who are the future of our Province.

Almost exactly a year ago, I attended the Youth Summit held in Durban, and at that summit I requested the newly formed Youth Steering Committee for KwaZulu-Natal, to participate in the drafting process together with the officials of my Department, who had produced the original draft legislation.  It would be remiss of me if I did not indicate that the process that took place was not always a smooth one, but I believe that we have to today, reached the stage that the Bill before us represents the product of considerable negotiation and that there is consensus on the main issues surrounding the legislation.

It is my belief that it is essential that we ensure that the youth of our Province are given the opportunity to develop into responsible citizens from which the leaders of the future will emerge, and given the imbalances of the past, as well as the negative effect of violence upon the youngsters of our Province, the need to ensure that we proceed with our planning in a proper co-ordinated fashion, is a prerequisite.  I am of the opinion that this co-ordinated planning and development can best be done by the appointment of a commission specifically to deal with youth matters, and it is for this reason that we find the Bill before us today.

Mr Speaker, it is not my intention to deal with the Bill, clause by clause, but rather to give an overview of the main provisions in the Bill.

The commission will consist of up to three full-time and three part-time members, as well as two ex officio members, giving a commission which will potentially comprise of eight members.  It is unfortunately the case that given the financial restrictions that face us today, allowing some flexibility in the number of members appointed to the commission, will enable us as a Province to channel such funds as may be available into producing results rather than paying members salaries.  It should be noted that the commissioners are to be appointed from amongst the youth of the region and will hold office for a period if five years.

Turning now, Mr Speaker, to the objectives of the commission, as well as its powers, duties and functions, the first, and perhaps the most important, task of the commission will be to develop an integrated youth development policy.  The commission can also be tasked with the development of an integrated youth development plan to use the available resources to best advantage, and this will involve the Commission in co-ordinating youth development activities in all sectors of our Province.

I have already touched briefly on this issue, namely, the issue of funds and the problems which face us at this time.  It is for this reason that the Bill makes provision for not only funds for the Commission to be appropriated by Parliament, but also for the creation of a Youth Development and Empowerment Fund, which will enable the Commission to obtain and utilise funds from other sources, for the benefit of youth as a whole.  Provision has also been made for me, with the approval of Cabinet, to make special grants to the Commission for programmes which will fall within the guidelines laid down in the youth policy the Commission is to develop.

The Commission will obviously need assistance with the day to day administrative aspects of its functioning, and for this purpose provision has been made for me to provide the Commission with administrative support from Provincial resources.

One of the recurring themes that has come to the fore during the discussions over the last year, is the need to ensure that the Commission produces results, and it is for this reason, that the Bill requires the Commission to report to me on progress on a quarterly basis, and I am, in turn, required to table these reports in this House.  This I believe, will not only allow me to satisfy myself of the efficacy of the Commission, but will also enable hon members, as public representatives, to monitor the progress made by the Commission and report back on progress to their constituents.

Mr Speaker, it has, due to lack of funding, been necessary for a provision to be made in the Bill for me to phase the operation of this legislation into effect.  Whilst I am the first to concede, that this is not the ideal situation, it should not be construed as an unwillingness on my part to the youth of this Province, but rather as an opportunity in the current financial climate, to ensure that the Commission can at least commence some of its responsibilities as and when funds can be made available.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I would like to reiterate that I am committed to the development of the youth of our Province who are, after all, the future of our region.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon Mr Aulsebrook.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will focus on the Portfolio Committee's report, and more specifically on the amendments which the Committee has recommended to the published Bill in order that this House has a better understanding on the logic as to why those amendments are brought to this House.

1.	As required in terms of Rule no. 120 of the Standing Rules of the Provincial Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal, the Bill was published in Afrikaans, isiZulu and English in the Provincial Gazette of 9 December 1997 and interested parties were invited to submit written comments to the Committee Secretariat by 28 December 1997.

2.	At its meeting in late January 1998, the Committee noted that only one written comment had been received and, in view of the importance of the Legislation, but at the same time mindful of the need to save costs as far as possible, agreed to hold public meetings.  These hearings were duly held in ~Ulundi~ on 17 February 1998 and in Pietermaritzburg on 23 February 1998.

3.	In response to the original publication of the Bill as well as the public hearings, written and verbal comments were received from the following persons/organisations.

		~Inkatha~ Freedom Party Youth Brigade
		National Party Youth Action
		African National Congress Youth League
		KwaZulu-Natal Youth Council
		KwaZulu-Natal Youth Steering Committee
		Department of Student Leadership of the Technikon Natal
		Mr Dan Chetty representing Industrial Investment Development Corporation
		Ms Cynthia Mbanjwa of Phelamanga Projects
		Democratic Party

4.	The Committee has now had the opportunity to consider these comments received and has agreed that the following amendments should be made to the legislation.  

Now, sir, for ease of reference, the House has been supplied with draft no. 5 of the Bill which lists the amendments and the deletions, the additions and deletions, as well as a clean copy of the Bill which is Bill 5.

The amendments, there are numerous, but a lot of them deal with minor issues in that they are generally grammatical corrections, renumbering of certain sub-clauses and other consequential changes.  There are other minor issues, as well as an alteration to the definitions.  

If we can take it clause by clause:

	Definitions

	(a)	For the sake of conformity with other legislation, the numbering of the Definitions has been removed;

	(b)	As a consequence of the amendment of Clause 6, the definition of "Director-General" has been deleted;

	(c)	The definition of "Minister of Finance" has been amended to bring it into line with the correct legal definition of "Minister" in the Provincial context.

	(d)	The definition of Portfolio Committee has been amended to make it clear that the membership of the Portfolio Committee comprises only of Members of the Provincial Legislature.

	Clause 3 - Objects of the Commission

	(a)	In terms of the representations made, both written and verbal, that there was a need to ensure that the relationship between the National and Provincial Commissions was clear, the committee amended Clause 3(a) to provide for the integrated youth policy to be developed and monitored by the Commission, to be within broad guidelines which the National Commission may determine.

	Clause 4 - Constitution of the Commission

	(a)	During the course of the presentations made to the committee, two issues arose in regard to the constitution of the Commission, namely, that there was no clarity in regard to the number of Commissioners envisaged in terms of the original Bill, due mainly to a typographical error in the explanatory memorandum which accompanied the Bill, and, secondly, representations were made for an increase in the number of Commissioners.  The committee considered the inputs carefully and reached the conclusion that there should not be an increase in the number of up to six members and that it should remain as suggested in the original draft, namely, six members to be appointed by the Premier as well as two ex officio members.  

I may add that the six members are three full-time members and three part-time members.

		The committee is however, of the opinion that the process on making nominations should be fully spelt out and for this reason Clause 4(1)(a) has been amended to provide for a process where the Premier is required to call for nominations for prospective members.

	(b)	The incorrect numbering in the original Bill of Sub-Clauses 4(5)(a) and (b) has been rectified.

	Clause 5 - Term of Office of members of the Commission

	(a)	The Committee looked at the provisions in Sub-Clause 5(3)(a) and felt that it would be impractical for the Premier to consult the youth of the Province regarding the possible termination of the services of a member of the commission and also felt that it would be correct for the Premier to consult the Portfolio Committee and the Commission itself in regard to such termination.  This is in line with the corresponding provision in the National Youth Act and the relevant clause has been reworded accordingly.

	Clause 6 - Secretariat and accounting responsibilities

	(a)	Since the drafting of the original Bill, changes to the Public Service Legislation which will change the position in regard to the designation by the Director-General of officials to assist Statutory Bodies with the secretarial and administrative work is in the process of being adopted and, in order to avoid the need to amend this legislation shortly after it has been passed to accommodate this situation, the Clause 6(1) has been amended to place the onus on the Premier to provide the necessary secretarial administrative work and other support to the Commission.  This provision is in keeping with other legislation in place in the Province.

	(b)	Clause 6(2) is a consequential amendment as a result of the amendment to clause 6(1).

	Clause 9 - Financial aid for programmes

Here the Committee, in examining this particular clause, and also throughout presentations and hearings, felt it necessary that the youth empowerment and development fund, the relationship between that and the funds provided by Parliament should be dealt with in regulations and not in the Bill, and thus that clause was omitted on the understanding that it will be dealt with in regulations.

	(a)	It was a theme throughout the presentations in the hearings, as well as the discussions on the Bill, that the Commission must direct the funds at their disposal in terms of the youth policy, and the amendment to this clause ensures that this will be the case.

	Clause 10 - Power, duties and functions of the Commission

	(a)	It was the opinion of the committee that it should be clearly spelt out that the Commission can make recommendations to the Premier on the needs of the youth and Sub-Clause 10(1)(a) has been amended accordingly.

THE SPEAKER:  Two minutes for the member.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

	(b)	In Sub-Clause 10(1)(e) of the original Bill the word "regulate" was used.  As the Commission does not, and cannot, have the competence to regulate, it was necessary to delete this from the relevant sub-clause.

	(c)	The Committee was of the opinion that Clause 10(2) was already implicit in the Bill and also was an unnecessary encumbrance on the Premier and the Clause should be deleted in its entirety.  This has been done and the consequential renumbering of Clauses 10(3) and (4) has been done.

	Clause 11 - Meetings of the Commission

This particular clause dealt with the number of meetings of the Commission, and it was decided that the Commission should meet no less than six times a year and at least every second month.  

	(a)	Considerable discussion, both in the presentations and the committee's deliberations, took place regarding the number of meetings that the Commission should be required to hold in a year.  Suggestions in this regard ranged from 4 to 12 per annum.  The Committee, mindful of the financial implications of holding unnecessary meetings, felt that the Commission should, bearing in mind the need for them to report on their activities on a quarterly  basis to the Premier, should meet at least every second month.  This will not preclude them from meeting more often should the need arise, and Clause 11(1) has been amended accordingly.

	(b)	The committee felt it was necessary to add the words "of the Commission at the end of Clause 11(3) to make it quite clear that the quorum comprised of the majority of the total number of members of the Commission.

The Commission submits the proposed amendments to the KwaZulu-Natal Youth Commission Bill for consideration.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  May I now call upon the hon Miss F M Nahara?

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I cannot even describe how urgent one wishes to see this Commission in place.  This Bill, or the Commission that we are talking about here will help quite a number of people here to understand what we are talking about when we talk about youth, because the interpretation that one has been seeing about youth is that they are just a bunch of uncontrollable young people, whatever, as you would hear some people say we have marginalised youth.  Somewhere else they are called war machinery.  Somewhere else people say this is a lost generation.  That is particularly here in South Africa.  It is said we have a lost generation.  You do not know why they are called the lost generation.

Somewhere else they are called [hobos that eat leaves, people who do not listen] all of these names kill us, thieves, whatever it is.  Some of these labels do push our youth very, very far because it is us, as parents, who are again praise them particularly on wrong things that we praise them.  That is when we actually drive them completely out of society to do the wrong things.  We call them amaqhawe [heroes] when they do wrong things because it suits us, as parents, and we call them heroes.  Yet what we are actually doing, we are creating leaders of tomorrow that you cannot trust, that will not have any credibility in society.

In my own view, Mr Speaker, it is not only the Government that must stand up and put this Bill in place, or make these policies.  It is the parents as well who need to contribute so that the policies that this Government talks about, that it wishes to put into place for the young people, begin at home whereby we stop saying to our children when they do wrong things, we say they are heroes, we teach them that their lives have to do with money in hand, otherwise not when we say [my child, do you know that because I have educated you, you must not bring a husband to this home who does not have money]. 

That is a very wrong thing that we do to our children.  At times we say [my child, I do not want to see you in the company of those old ragamuffins, that this township is full of] yet that is misleading.  I am not protecting my child, but I am misleading this child in various ways.  The sooner we begin as parents to give direction and teach them the correct thing as young people, I think we would be contributing to the State to actually build good leaders for tomorrow in this country.


We leave them as parents.  As parents, when it comes to young women, when they have dropped out of school, we say [that indeed, from time immemorial, that is what a woman was created for]. 
That is a wrong interpretation, Mr Speaker.  We should be, as mothers, teaching our young ladies that their youthhood is much more important than us telling them [according to nature, my child, that is what a woman was created for]. 

Those are some of the wrong teachings that we give to our children.  

Mr Speaker, one can put forward quite a number of things that are wrong, but I believe if we all support this Bill here and we have these structures, it will help us somehow even to change our attitudes because right now, if you look, the attitudes that are all over here are very, very negative towards the youth, and once we can change the youth, when we have this Commission in place, I believe it is going to help us all to change our attitudes towards the youth and begin to see them as part of our community, part of the society, and people whom we need to build in a proper way.

It will also help those who drop out of schools to get them back to school.  It will help them to be helpful in society, to actually be the workers and strong workers of society.  

In short, Mr Speaker, I support this Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Matthee.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Matthee, you are the first one to be marked like this, and I am sure you will set an example.  You have exactly four minutes, of which 16 seconds have gone.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Can I just check it, please?

MR J C MATTHEE:  First of all, sir, I wish to thank the Almighty God for giving me the privilege and the honour for allowing me to serve in this Legislature.

Sir, I would also like to thank you for you words of welcome to me and also the hon, the Premier, for his words and welcome.  I thank him for his kind words.  Also, sir, to certain hon members, many hon members, some of them I have known for many years, to thank them for welcoming me here.  Also, to the officials.  Some of them have helped me already.  I have still to meet quite a few others, but certainly I am looking forward to working with the officials because they are the engine room of this Province and they certainly need all the support that they deserve.

Last, but not least, sir, I would like to express my thanks to the parliamentary staff for helping me and guiding me in making my stay here as comfortable as possible.  I thank them for that.

Just before I come to the motion I would just like to quote from 11 Chronicle, Chapter 7, verse 14.

	...if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Sir, if there is one section of our community that needs healing in South Africa it is our youth.  I fully endorse the previous speaker, Miss Nahara, the sentiments which she expressed here this afternoon.  I certainly support that, sir.

I would like to thank the hon, the Premier, for bringing this Bill to Parliament, because I believe it is the responsibility if this Government to protect, to educate and to guide our children.  Similarly, the onus also rests on the parents of our children for the responsibility for their upbringing.  

We cannot change habits.  If we go back 5 or 3 000 years ago, children have always been naughty.  They have always been cheeky, and even today we find our children being naughty and cheeky.  There is one thing that has changed in our society and that is the threat to mankind in terms of child abuse, sexual abuse, drugs that are so freely available in South Africa.  Pornographic material and films, can be obtained round each and every corner of any shop in our towns and our cities.  What kind of moral standards are we building in our youth.  One senior Minister the other day said if we just look at our TV and we see the violence that is projected, what sort of child, what sort of policemen are we going to produce in 10 and 20 years time if that child is exposed to the kind of violence on our TVs.

Just yesterday the Bible Society of South Africa handed as a gift of a Bible to each and every member here in this Assembly.  I pray and I hope that each member in his constituency and in his area will take this to their community.  Those communities who would like to acquire the Bible, sir, and I sincerely would like to encourage them, the Bible Society of South Africa will certainly go out of their way to distribute Bibles to our schools and to our colleges so that we can build a firm foundation for our youth for tomorrow.

I thank you, Mr Speaker, and I support this motion.  

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up.  [LAUGHTER]   Yes, now I get to Mr Burrows.  I will time you now.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of my party, and I am sure on behalf of the whole House, I would like to extend our congratulations to the hon member, Mr Matthee, for the speech that he has made, and for joining us in this House.  I think he is only the second member in the House who has come to us from the old Provincial Council through the background of the National Assembly and then here.

If I turn to the Bill itself, Mr Speaker, I could echo all the compliments being made regarding youth and the possibility of the creation of the Youth Commission.  However, I must say that the Democratic Party will have very considerable problems supporting this legislation in its present form.  I think it is fundamentally flawed for the very reasons that I will indicate in the extremely limited time that the Whips have given to us, of the smaller parties, to debate this.  Three minutes is not enough to debate a piece of legislation.

The first point, Mr Premier, that if you have no funds, with respect, sir, to appoint three full-time Commissioners, then, with respect, you will not have a Commission.  If you do not have a Commission, then there can be nobody to advise.  We went through a process with the Peace Committee where we were not able to appoint certain people.  We actually had to amend the legislation.  So if the funds are not there to immediately appoint three full-time Commissioners, then, with respect, you will not have a Commission.

The Democratic Party, in the Portfolio Committee, proposed a body of no fewer than 12 and no more than 20 part-time members that would allow the process to commence at minimum cost, but, quite frankly, I think you are stuck with a fundamental difficulty by indicating the Commission has got to have three full-time and three part-time members, because if you cannot appoint them, you have not got a Commission.

The second issue, with respect, sir, is the question of the Youth Development and Empowerment Fund, which indicates in the Bill that:

	Any donation received from any source shall be paid into the Youth Development and Empowerment Fund, and proceeds from the Commission fund-raising efforts.

As far as I am aware, sir, there is no provision within the laws of this country that money received into a structure such as this will not immediately be paid into general revenue.  I think you are again stuck with the fundamental difficulty that general revenue itself will have to meet this kind of funding.

The third area of difficulty, sir, is, whilst I support the remarks being made about youth generally and the problems facing youth, youth is defined in this piece of legislation as any person between the ages of 14 and 35.  So there are a number of members who are youths in this House.  Sometimes they exhibit that tendency, if I may say so.  [LAUGHTER]  

AN HON MEMBER:  Some of them are children.

MR R M BURROWS:  But, with respect, sir, if we look at the demographics of the population of this Province, between the ages of 14 and 35 are some 40% of our population, and, quite frankly, it is just too big a body.  I have a suspicion we should be looking at a far tighter and more exclusive group of people that we would term youth.

The last point we want to make, sir, from the Democratic Party.....

THE SPEAKER:  That point is left, the time is over, three minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  That is what I mean about not having enough time, sir.  I think it is a fundamental constitutional flaw that the Whips need to address regularly.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon Mrs Gasa for 10 minutes.

MRS F X GASA:  Mr Speaker, the hon Premier, and members, I wish to rise and express my thoughts and feelings pertaining to the youth with special reference to the Provincial Youth Commission.  

It was indeed a pleasure for me to see how well focused the youth was when we were participating with them during the public hearings on the point in question as reflected earlier by our Chair, Mr Aulsebrook.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS F X GASA:  Can I be protected, Mr Speaker?

AN HON MEMBER:  From Mike Tarr.

MRS F X GASA:  As our point of departure, I think it is imperative to be mindful of the fact that youth is a bridge that links and communicates the present generation with the past, as well as the present one with future posterity.  In other words, therefore, our youth should be viewed within the ambit of a brigade or a contingent that is standing on the crossroads of history during this era of our country.  Most of these have been touched on by my colleague, Miss Nahara, when she was talking generally on youth issues.

These young people need to be sharpened and groomed in their thoughts and behaviourial patterns.  We then as a Government, Mr Speaker, need to bridge that schism, which exists amongst our youth, of all racial groups, within all the four corners of our country.  We also need to face head-on the challenges that exist and that deprive them of all the facilities which could have made them grow in a normal society and country, and ultimately take their rightful place among the youth of the international communities.  This needs to be done in all spheres of life, be it in politics, social and religious spheres.

The youth of South Africa embody a wider category of people who belong to an older age group than what is generally regarded as "youth", in order to afford protection to the deprived youth of yesteryear who need to be uplifted and integrated into society.  While this inclusivity is welcomed, the youth must not abandon the children of today.  The abuses against youth and young children are increasing at an alarming rate in our country.  One of the most important tasks of the Youth Commission is to fight for the rights of the children and for their protection from maltreatment, neglect, abuse, degradation at home, at school and on the playground.

The basic rights of children are embodied in our Constitution, but structures need to be put in place to ensure that these rights are upheld.  A noble cause that should be championed by the Youth Commission should be to have youth groups that are encouraged to serve as the eyes and ears against the abuse of children, as I have mentioned earlier, and to collectively report these offences to the authorities.  

Mr Speaker, the Youth Commission could also be instrumental in drawing up the Children's Treaty that would extend their basic constitutional rights, to include social rights that would enrich the lives of children and nurture their psychological wellbeing.  If I still have time I have a few suggestions.   

1.	The right to play.  

	For example, current housing developments make provision for public open spaces that can be used as parks and playgrounds, but, in addition, play areas must be a safe environment where children can express themselves freely.

2.	The right to grow.  

	This is not merely the right to live, but a child's right to develop his or her physical and mental capacities.  



3.	The right to imagination and culture.  

	Children raised in over-populated, unhealthy city "ghettoes" are cut off from each other and from their cultural heritage.  Arts and culture should, therefore, have a space where it could play a very vital role in the school curricula enabling children to develop their mental faculties and a sense of belonging in the history of their nation.

4.	The right to warmth.  

	Law can never guarantee the love and security of our children, but it can be a major instrument in promoting conditions which favour the achievement of these goals.  It can provide for a network of family support agencies, and impose an obligation on local government and employers to respect the family unit and establish creches for children in or near the work place.

Mr Speaker, all these initiatives should move in pari-passu with promoting the character and personality of the youth.  The youth is the vanguard of every country and nation and we should inject in them a fire, a surge of optimism, and a single-minded determination, coupled with an unshakeable sense of purpose, in whatever they are doing or saying.

As we teach these children their rights, I guess, Mr Speaker, and hon Premier, we need to teach our children that rights go with responsibility.

We are nurturing the future leaders.  We are panel-beating the future Premiers.  We are moulding the future State Presidents.  At the end of the day if we fail to produce these kinds of leaders, as role models ourselves, that would mean we have handed down a vague, valueless programme which would be tantamount to having abandoned our youth before they start.  

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, let us spare no effort as far as putting our shoulders to the wheel in achieving this task because the road ahead of us is not only arduous, but it is hilly, it is rocky, it is thorny, and let us march with this spirit in achieving it as we expect and as what is expected of us.  

The IFP supports this Bill.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Gasa.  Mrs Downs, two minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Very briefly, Mr Speaker, I have got three cautions.  

Do not allow the policy of the Youth Commission to undermine family relationships, particularly parental responsibilities, and here I am talking about the youth which I term 14 to 18 year-olds.  I do not think that applies to 35 year-olds.

The National Youth Commission has been a very expensive exercise for the taxpayer and largely has not produced anything worthwhile.  I think that we should be very careful that that does not happen in our Province.

Youth development should be practical and achievable and they should not actually produce pie in the sky recommendations that we cannot fund or cannot look after.

There are positive aspects in this Bill, which is why we are going to support it, but I would like to really appeal to the people who are choosing the Commissioners that everything rests on choosing the right people.  Choose them for their ability to be good role models, choose them for their ability to be good leaders, choose them for their ability to have a high integrity and moral character, and choose them because they have the right skills, and not for any other reason.

That is my appeal.  With that we support the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Mr Rehman, you have 10 minutes.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Speaker, at the very outset I would like to thank the hon Premier for putting this outstanding Bill to this hon House.

South Africa, with its long history of disenfranchisement and discriminatory practices, has produced a sector of marginalised youth.  From the early years of ~Apartheid~ some of the youth have turned to militant action and adopted a culture of "liberation before education".  

George Bernard Shaw once said:

	A life spent in making mistakes is not only more honourable, but more useful, than a life spent doing nothing.

Hence I do not want to delve into this matter, but look forward.  The challenge then is to forward and make empowerment a reality for our youth.  We need to reaffirm that youth are a national asset, integral to the processes of national development.

Mr Speaker, the creation of the Youth Commission will represent a step forward in recognising and realising the dreams and aspirations of our youth.  The processes of the Youth Commission are exhaustive, and situates the Commission into a challenging period of implementation and delivery.  The Youth Commission contributes two-fold, contributing to youth development, advancement, as well as nation-building.  The development of the Provincial youth policies comes in at the precise time in the lives of our young people.  Enveloped in this youth policy is the utilisation of resources.  Through this process of utilisation, youth will be integrated into society through skills and work which is essentially youth focused.

Mr Speaker, countries such as Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, and even Japan, the youth were looked upon as mediocre.  Despite their mediocrity, they have re-emerged from their malaise.  This definitely has lessons for us in South Africa.  South Africa has triumphed over ~Apartheid~, and with the new history of political development, so can our youth.  In its endeavour towards empowerment, we need to recognise that the provision of understandable information is a critical tool to make our youth responsible and take control over their own lives.  Thus access to information will ensure that information on health, employment support programmes, alcohol, substance abuse, youth rights, career guidance and information centres, are disseminated accurately and efficiently.  The Youth Development and Empowerment Fund will ensure that delivery is achieved and youth are re-integrated into society.

The Bill needs to be pro-actively integrated into different organisations to ensure that it is understandable to the public and interest groups.  In order to effectively address the youth, there needs to be public awareness, advocacy and media understanding.  The imminent adoption of this Bill will herald a formative phase of the Commission's work.  The Commission will be catapulted into an arena of public expectation and evaluation.  Thus the year 1998 looms as an all important year on deliverance.  We need to reaffirm the overwhelming strength of our youth, support our youth and view them as an on-going source of strength and encouragement.

Mr Speaker, often well-meaning plans have fallen victim to poor execution and lack of public support.  The future for youth development and advancement requires the Youth Commission to rise to this challenge and ensure that key programmes, arising from the Youth Bill, are implemented.  

In closing, I want to stress that the youth have established their strong roots.  We need to help them to spread their wings and soar to greater heights.  We, from the IFP, unhesitatingly support this wonderful piece of legislation.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rehman.  Nkwali yeNkosi.  

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  As one of the youngest members in this Legislature, I have no choice but to support this Bill.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  You are not the youngest, but the wisest.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, the PAC is very concerned about the situation of our youth these days.  The question of the culture of their respect for their elders, and the respect for their culture - we are very worried.  The greatest worry is in relation to the new killer disease which threatens a no tomorrow for our nation.  We grew up in a situation, as youths, where we enjoyed ourselves with the greatest gift which God gave only to human beings, and not to animals.  We are worried that our youth are trapped in a situation where they are not enjoying their youth as we did and as those before them did.

We are hoping therefore, Mr Premier, that when this Commission addresses the problem of the youth, we hope they will be more serious than they are.  I am hoping that we, as parents, will not leave everything to them.  We should guide our youth as we were guided by our parents.  Therefore I think we should talk to our youth to take the question of this Commission very seriously.  It must be there to bring back the culture of ~Ubuntu~ to the youth, because if things go as they are going and we parents throw stones at them, and give them all kinds of negative names like the lost generation and so on and so on, I hope this will help the Premier and his Cabinet to be helpful to bring them together to make them more serious.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can the hon member wind up, please?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mrs Millin, you have 10 minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS T E MILLIN:  Mr Speaker, as I rise to speak on this Bill on our Youth Commission I am only too aware that some will rightfully consider that I, having passed my half century several years ago, might be deemed a little old to be debating the Youth Commission.  However, I respectfully submit that I am at least as young as our hon Premier, having been born in the same year as him, and you can guess what year that is.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS T E MILLIN:  Check the records.  However, perhaps our mature years give one some validity in speaking to our youth, hard though it may be for the younger generation to believe that we oldies were young once.  As the mother of two fine young sons in their twenties, I do have regular dealings with youth, and according to several favourable comments about my sons over the years, have not done too bad a job on raising them together with my husband.

Mr Speaker, as the report, tabled this morning from the Premier's Portfolio Committee on the Youth Commission deals comprehensively with the background and technical aspects to the aforesaid Bill, may I confine myself to a general view of our youth, by stating for the young people of our nation the future of our great country is their future, and that is why the youth today, black, white or brown, have an immense responsibility, even challenge, not to gamble with the future of this country and to see our new government succeed.  With so much at stake, therefore, they can ill afford to be reckless in what they do.

Although youth tend to be idealistic in their viewpoints, and it is natural, and even healthy to allow such idealism, here I am reminded of a well-known truism - if at 20 you are not an idealist/socialist, you have no heart.  However, if at 40 you are still an idealist/socialist, you have no head - and looking around there are a few here who fit into that category.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MRS T E MILLIN:  However, let me put such cynicism aside.

MR A RAJBANSI:  NOT ON RECORD

MRS T E MILLIN:  Yes, yes, that is what I am referring to.  Therefore while youth are somewhat idealistic such idealism must be translated into practical actions which can move our country away from the present crisis of crime and violence.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, will the hon member take a question?

MRS T E MILLIN:  Later.  

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  No, no, take it now.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Indeed, the unruly political behaviour displayed by many of our youth does not help the situation in any way.  There are struggles going on within our communities engendered by differences of opinion on just how to liberate South Africa, and many of our youth find themselves either drawn in or voluntarily participating in township violence, and yet it is this internecine strife against innocent members of the community which will, in effect, prolong the oppression of disadvantaged South Africans, rendering such actions totally counter-productive to the struggle for upliftment.

As I have said, Mr Speaker, the youth are the future.  Therefore, the time has come for them to demonstrate the kind of future that they want, and for the good of society as a whole, and to do that they need to move away from conflict and exert their youthful exuberance in a positive and constructive manner.

The youth need to reach out across race, culture and language barriers, closing past political and social chasms, and furthermore encouraging and exhorting others to join them in their search for peaceful solutions to the problems of this troubled country, rather than engage in criminal and violent activities, resulting in a heavy cost of innocent lives.  The youth of today must facilitate the transformation of our country through the active promotion of a safe and secure society, where business can invest and mothers and parents can raise their children free from fear and intimidation.

It is of deep concern to me personally, and to members on this side of the House, that we are witnessing a general decay in moral values, resulting in the all-pervading permissive culture which, in turn, is a direct cause of the scourge of AIDS.  If the words of warning against such a cancerous culture of permissiveness are not heeded, one may well ask, Mr Speaker, whether there will indeed be any youth left to inherit the future.  It is a great concern.

As a Bible-believing Christian, but nevertheless acknowledging the validity of all the great faiths in upholding sound family values, may I conclude with the injunction as amplified in Psalm 78, verses 5 to 7:

	For the Lord established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel in which he commanded our fathers, that they should make known to their children, that the generation to come might know them, that they may arise and declare them, that they may set their hope in God and not forget the works of God.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Will you take my question?

MRS T E MILLIN:  In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I would like to just table these amendments to the Youth Commission Bill.

The definition of youth.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  What is the point of order?

MR A RAJBANSI:  I wonder if the hon member realises that by tabling the amendments it means that we cannot vote on the Bill.  She should rather consult the Chief Whip.

MR R M BURROWS:  Why do you not leave the IFP caucus to sort themselves out?  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mrs Millin, will you continue, please?

MRS T E MILLIN:  Mr Speaker, we propose voting on this tomorrow if we can table these amendments, please.  

The definition of youth should mean any person between the age of 7 and 25 and exclude any married person.  

That we should delete, with the change in age down to 25, clause 5(3)(b).  That should be deleted.  Because if we do not a youth Commissioner cannot be older than 25 or will not be older than 25, which could be a little young.

So with those proposed amendments, I thank you, and otherwise we support this Bill.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Millin.  

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I still get a further clarification from the Chief Whip on the amendments?  It effects voting tomorrow.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Raj, can I just follow this procedure?  There was a question whether you would take a question, and you answered that you would take a question later.  Can we agree that this is later?

MRS T E MILLIN:  If it is a sensible question, Mr Speaker, I will attempt to answer it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There usually are no conditions.

AN HON MEMBER:  Do not ask her age.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Continue with your question.

MR A RAJBANSI:  In the light of the fact that this House is used to hearing from the hon member in every one of her speeches negative references to the SACP, we find that that reference is now missing.  The question is has she fallen in love with the SACP?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS T E MILLIN:  Mr Speaker, perhaps I just felt that they should have a little break today, but I shall be at it again very soon.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Having said that, can we then, before I give Mr Rajbansi a chance to address the House, I have two announcements to make.  Can I have order from the two hon members.  There are two announcements I want  to make and I prefer that all of us are aware of them.

I have been ordered by the Speaker to report that in terms of Rule 61, he has received an expression of regret from a member, the hon member, Mr Cyril Xaba.  As such he has accepted the apology and has signed to that effect, and declares that the member can now resume his seat in the House.

The second announcement is, it has been brought to our attention by a member of the House that somebody appears to have misplaced some of his belongings.  That is a cell.  We are not going to say what type of a cell, and a pair of spectacles.  We think that if anybody is missing a cell, they should send a message to us saying what sort of a cell they are missing.  We want the number of the cell, the serial number.  The spectacles as well.  I do not think anybody would steal spectacles, but if anybody is missing spectacles, could they send a messenger with a message to say that they have lost their spectacles.

I now call upon Mr Rajbansi, and unfortunately he also has two minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  On many issues KwaZulu-Natal Province has taken lots of initiative.  I think today we request the media to publicise the very fact that we are dealing with a Bill that is going to establish a Youth Commission.  There is no doubt about the fact that in the words of a great German sociologist, Dr Hansie Pollock, that South African has, for generations, total impoverishment of our youth, and as a result of that great divide between haves and have-nots, it is a great task to put the social order on the correct path.  

Therefore to give the youth direction to harness the energy towards positiveness means that we are building a better foundation for the future.  Because remember this, when we talk of change we talk of 1994, we talk of other incidents, but it was the youth of this nation that woke people up inside the country in 1976 from a very, very deep slumber.  That action of the youth resulted in the leader of the National Party at the time searching himself to provide the necessary leadership from officialdom to bring about changes in this country.

I am very glad that the hon Mrs Millin tabled that amendment, because in terms of God's law we have a life span of 150 years.  An Alsatian dog has a life span of 15 years.  So to give us 35 years does not mean that we are really young.  I can say the hon Premier has the best profile of youthful exuberance in this whole House.  In fact he is a better youth than most of the people who are defined as youths.

I want to make an appeal to the hon Premier.  The total financial implication in respect of the establishment of this Commission might be about R1,3m.  My suggestion to him is let us, after passing this Bill, leave it on the table as enabling legislation because some people will say we are firing teachers, we are firing this, we are doing that, we have not got money, but we are creating structures.  

This structure is very, very important, and I want to suggest that he should get his Minister of Local Government, or the pseudo Minister of Local Government here, to establish youth councils in local areas because we do not need a Commission, shall I say, only at high level.  We must penetrate the length and breadth of this Province.  We must not only be attracted by the glitter of the bright lights of the cities.  We must go right into the rural areas.  Let us spread the message of the reawakening of the youth.  We give them encouragement, we give them hope for the future.

With these words, Mr Speaker, I support this Bill with the dictum to say we always say the Premier is 52 years old.  A child is one year old.  We do not say a child is one year young.  So let us take into consideration God's great gift to mankind.  Without them this country is not going to have a great future.  My two minutes have been very valuably spent in spite of the remarks that I got from the left-hand side.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you. You are provoking this House and you are putting me in a difficult position.  Please do not do that.  I now call upon Mr Waugh.  You have five minutes, sir.

MR J C N WAUGH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Let me at the outset congratulate my colleague from our party, Mr Cliff Matthee on his maiden speech.  I think it was a very appropriate topic to do a speech on, and, Cliff, thank you for being part of the youth within our party.  Thanks for your contribution.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J C N WAUGH:  Today, is indeed, a very happy occasion for the youth in our Province.  The one pity though, Mr Speaker, is that yesterday we had many of the youth that were present in this Chamber to listen to the debate on the Youth Commission.  Unfortunately this debate did not take place and many of those youths had to go back home without being or feeling part of this process.  I think that was a great pity.  That was an opportunity which we lost.

Mr Speaker, I have been involved, and our party has been involved, in this process for quite a long time, like many other parties.  I think we must congratulate everybody that has been involved.  There is a multi-party Interim Youth Steering Committee that got together two years ago and they were part of this process.  I think we must thank all the role players within that structure who put this Act on the table.

We must also thank the Premier, because on numerous occasions that Steering Committee wanted clarity on issues.  I must admit that the Premier had an open door for that Steering Committee, and on numerous occasions that Committee did meet with the Premier on a number of other issues as well as youth development in the Province, but also as far as this Bill is concerned.

It is, however, with regret that I have to say that when we look at the constitution of the Commission, there is a problem, and the problem is this.  Let me rather just read to you clause 4(1)(a):

	The Commission shall consist of:

	(a)	Not more than three full-time and three part-time members who shall be youths appointed by the Premier.

Mr Speaker, this has been an issue that has been debated at length.  It has also been an issue which many organisations dealt with during the public hearings.  Most of them were of the opinion that we must have three full-time members.  As it is worded here we can have up to three full-time members.  I do not think that was precisely what the youth had wanted.

One accepts the fact that financial considerations are part of the problem.  What I would like to ask is that we look into the matter as far as other departments are concerned.  Within our Province many departments are involved with youth.  Is there not one or other way where some of those monies, which are in different departments, can be brought together to assist this process?

Mr Speaker, in terms of this Act, the Premier can appoint up to three.  So he can appoint three, if he so sees fit that can happen.  I want to appeal to him that if it happens that three not be appointed, consideration may be given to only three part-time members, and then when we are in such a position where we can appoint full-time members that we then appoint all three full-time members.

I would also like to touch on the Directorate of Youth Affairs.  In the Province there is a Directorate of Youth Affairs, but I must admit that we did not have the co-operation from that directorate in the way the Interim Youth Steering Committee would have wanted.  We tried, during public hearings, which the Premier requested the Steering Committee to handle, to use public facilities as well as departmental facilities.  We did not have that co-operation.  On the other hand let me tell you that on the contrary the Premier's Department, everything that the Youth Steering Committee did, we had all the co-operation we could have got from the Premier's Department.  You will see that some of the officials from his Department have turned quite grey after dealing with the youth.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J C N WAUGH:  Another issue I would like to raise, Mr Speaker, is the one of the Youth Development and Empowerment Fund.  I think we should consider involving business in this.  We must get private business to be part of this.  Maybe we must consider creating a board and have high profile members within business, to be part of that board.  Once you involve people, you get a commitment from them, and then we might get commitment from business to also assist in funding projects within our Province.

Mr Speaker, in closing I would like to say that we are very glad and pleased that this Bill has come to the table.  It has been a long process, but this Bill will enable the youth to have a say about themselves.  I am sure the youth will also, because of this Bill, have an input in what happens at youth level as far as other departments are concerned.  

When one has to say whether we support the Bill or not, at this stage we cannot say that we will support the Bill.  There have now been changes tabled to the Bill, and one would first want to look and consider those changes before one can say that we support the Bill.  So at this stage I cannot say that.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I now call upon Mr Powell.  You have got 10 minutes.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The hon Minister of Transport said that I am a person who is associated with violence.  I will not disappoint him because I want to talk about the impact of violence on the youth.

Mr Speaker, this Bill and the structures which it sets up are a welcome addition to the institution of good governance.  I think that it is only appropriate that we congratulate the Premier, the Chairman and his Portfolio Committee on the development of this Bill.  

I share the concerns and reservations of those members who have expressed their concern about the financial implications of the Bill.  I would hope that the Commission, once it starts its work, pays attention to priority areas, and this is where I come to the issue of violence.

It is common cause that the youth of our Province have paid a terrible price during the decades of violence which have devastated communities, and that there are a few areas where the Youth Commission needs to focus urgent attention.  I would like to highlight a few of those.

One of them is, of course, the by-products of the disruption of education, the burning and destruction of schools, the killing of teachers, and the general disruption of the education system.

AN HON MEMBER:  By SPUs.

MR P POWELL:  This has had very severe consequences for the youth, the generations of youth, who have lost out or sacrificed their education.  They are now faced with large scale unemployment, and also the impact which it has on our economy where we have a reduced skills base of technicians and professional people which, of course, affects the growth and the potential of our entire economy.

Mr Speaker, the other important element which we need to address, through this Commission, is the militarisation of the youth of our Province.  We need to prioritise the development of programmes to take youths that have been caught up in military and para-military activities and reintroduce them into society, and integrate them as fully fledged and responsible citizens.

One of the unfortunate consequences of the unemployment, the violence and the dislocation, is wide spread criminality.  This needs to be addressed at various levels.  

The first one is the issue of gangs.  I think that this is something that requires serious study and attention.  If dealt with, it can be one of the preventative measures to prevent youths from ending up in the next part of the problem, which is those youths who end up in prisons and also in places of safety.  They become caught up in a spiral of criminality, and very often, sadly, leave these institutions more integrated into a criminal sub-culture than when they go in.  Then, of course, the Commission should pay very urgent attention to the rehabilitation of those youths who come out of this system, and pay particular attention to the problem of substance abuse, both inside these institutions and out.  
Mr Speaker, the other problem area which also has resulted from the violence is the disruption and dislocation of the family unit.  Families have been broken up.  Family members have been killed.  People have been driven out of their homes.  The result of this is very, very fundamental to the youth.  It is reflected in the high rate of teenage pregnancies and single parent relationships.  It is also reflected in child abuse.  It is reflected in the problem of AIDS, and in the break-down of the kind of fabric of family life which has taken place in communities, which are affected by violence.

You only have to go to communities which have experienced particular waves of violence and look around and see the almost waves of, maybe one could call them, struggle babies which follow any outbreak of violence in a community.  To see that there are many social problems which go with violence.

One of the other areas which needs particular attention is the issue of street children and perhaps the associated problem of child prostitution.  

I think that it is clear from just these few points, that I have tabled here, that the Youth Commission has a very considerable task ahead of it.  My only concern and fear is that in discussion with representatives of youth structures there tends to be an over-inflated expectation of what these structures are capable of doing.  I share the views of others who have suggested that these structures be decentralised and created at local level.

With those observations and reservations, I would like to support the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Powell.

AN HON MEMBER:  Can you take those observations to SPU structures?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I now call upon the hon member, Mr Xaba.  You have 15 minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order?

MR V C XABA:  It is good to be back, Mr Speaker, in this House.  [LAUGHTER]  I never thought that this debate was going to go ahead without the presence of the youth.  It indeed began.  

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, will the hon member take a question?

MR V C XABA:  No, Mr Speaker.  

MR W U NEL:  You are not a youth any more. 

MR V C XABA:  Mr Speaker, a word of thanks goes to officials in the Department, in particular Mr Joubert and Mr Martin.  I would also not forget to congratulate the Steering Committee on Youth which has done an outstanding job on this Bill.  I would also congratulate the Premier who has finally seen it fit that this Bill be introduced.

Though this Bill is long overdue, it is still an important and probably an even more relevant piece of legislation.  The delay in producing this Bill was unnecessary and has created an impression that the Government of KwaZulu-Natal is not serious about youth issues.

KwaZulu-Natal has the largest concentration of youth in the whole country.  Given its size, other problem areas such as unemployment, matric failure rates, AIDS, young mothers and the like, all manifest themselves as massive social problems.

While the Bill should have been treated urgently, at least today we can stand up and say let us set our shoulders to the wheel and give effect to the provisions of the Bill once passed.  Mindful of the fact that the youth have been disappointed before in the slow pace of getting this Bill before the House, we trust the Premier will sign the Bill as soon as it is passed.

I have been listening carefully to the hon members of the House.  The support given for the Bill by all parties leaves me with a hope that the Commission due to be set up will get every possible assistance from members of this House.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR V C XABA:  Issues raised by the hon member from the DP and the hon member, Mrs Millin, were in fact given due consideration.  It was, however, not possible to accommodate those issues after having considered the weight of submissions delivered before the Portfolio Committee during the public hearings.  So I do not think that the amendments that have been proposed in this House should in fact be considered further because they have been given enough consideration.  So in that way one would suggest that without any further delay we vote for the Bill today.  

The Commission's main task is to formulate a comprehensive youth policy and on an on-going basis to monitor and co-ordinate the implementation of such policy.  In doing so it will be empowered to promote uniformity in approach by all organs of the Provincial Government in respect of matters concerning the youth.

The youth has deemed it absolutely necessary that a Commission of this nature be established so that they can be party to solving the many challenges and problems facing our young people.  The overwhelming majority of our young people still have to deal with the legacies of ~Apartheid~.  The ~Apartheid~ state sponsored violence and robbed young people of their future.  It left orphans.  It did not only displace them, but disrupted their formal schooling.

Mr Speaker, it is clear to me that this Commission will have a mammoth task before it.  Unless it gets the necessary co-operation from all, including members of Parliament and various institutions within our Government, it will not be able to live up to the challenges facing the young people in our country.  

Mr Speaker, without wasting too much of your time, from this side of the House we support this Bill, and urgently request that the House vote for the Bill today so that the Premier will then give it the necessary attention in terms of signing it into law.

Mr Speaker, I will rest my input at that level.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I get clarification before the hon Premier replies?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  In terms of the amendment, Rule 127 makes it obligatory for this Bill not to be voted today.  And obligatory for it to be referred to a Committee.  Now there might be a possibility that this Bill might be delayed.  So in the light of what was stated, if the Premier could consider the withdrawal of the amendments.  They have not been placed in writing.  They are not amendments.  They must be placed in writing.

So if the members, like the Transport Bill, do not consult the caucus and come and take decisions, then we are faced with a predicament.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Raj, I really am not placed in any predicament.  I am very clear.  I know what to do with the Bill, if it is still me presiding, when this debate is over.  I know what to do, unless obviously I get directives of how to overcome that problem.  It is true we have Rule 127(1) which makes it obligatory that after the amendments have been put, the Bill will be re-committed to the Committee.  However, I am hoping that that is being taken care of by, in particular, the Chief Whip.  I hope the Minister has also taken care of that.

Nonetheless, I am now calling upon the hon Premier to answer to the debate on the Youth Commission Bill.  Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I thank the members for their participation in this discussion.  They have raised a lot of valuable points for consideration.  

First of all, let me thank Mr Aulsebrook and his Portfolio Committee, the Premier's Portfolio Committee, who dealt with the issue of this legislation.  We also thank the Department of the Premier, the Secretary of the Department, and the other people who dealt with the Steering Committee to create this legislation.

I found the situation of the Youth Bill already on the table when I came into the Province.  However, there were all sorts of conflicting responses.  At the summit in April, last year, I was told by the youth gathered there that the Bill had been drawn without their involvement.  I immediately said that the Steering Committee must start working with the Department on this Bill so that it reflects the wishes and thinking of the youth of the country.  

So I was very surprised when Mr Xaba implied that I was the obstacle to the passage of this Bill.  That is patently untrue.  I co-operated all the way with the youth, but at every stage the youth had their own ideas.  They wanted some things changed, and that was the cause of the slowness.  Not the Premier.  I am looking forward to this Bill just as every member in this House.

AN HON MEMBER:  Forgive him.  He is still a youth.  

THE PREMIER:  He is a kraal head.  He cannot be a youth.  
I am looking forward to the Commission working with the Department of the Premier, with the Portfolio Committee, with business, with community organisations, because we are facing a huge problem.  Half of the people who are unemployed in this country are below the age of 35.  They are energetic, they are young, they are idle.  It is obvious that we are just looking for trouble if we do not find things that will occupy them so they stop being idle.  

We need to proceed with the greatest of speed to establish the boards that have been proposed here to make sure that the Youth Commission functions effectively.  We must devise strategies and look for money outside of the Government budget to put up training institutions and all other such structures that will absorb the youth who leave school, and prepare them for effective entry into the economy.  That cannot happen unless training is made possible.  In every town, in every village, there must be some type of activity that prepares the youth to be productive, to become entrepreneurs, or, if not, to be employable in the technical industries.

Mr Speaker, Mr Burrows raised the issue about the money.  I have spoken to the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee about these issues.  We will look at how we can use the constitutional clause or provision that the Province could make exclusion about monies that go into the National revenue.  There is opportunity for that.  We shall look at it.

I have also spoken to the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee.  The change in the cut-off year, which is now 35, and it has been proposed that it should be reduced, will come in as an amendment if the Portfolio Committee agrees, and, of course, the Steering Committee also agrees.

I think it makes eminent sense to have a cut-off point, and the proposal was that 25 should be the upper limit in describing the youth.  Marriage should be the exclusion.  When a person gets married and bears his or her own children, surely that person cannot be expected to benefit from those facilities that are created for the youth, because at that stage the person assumes a new responsibility and must himself or herself become the provider for the children.  It would be too difficult to cater for such a broad band of our population if we leave the definition at 35.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  The institutions that will be created must cater for a very specific group of people, recognising their special needs, and therefore creating special instruments in Government and outside to cater for those needs.

On the whole, I think there is real consensus in the Province about the task that we face and the help that we will derive from this Commission in facing those problems, such as child abuse, alcohol abuse, as well as facing the scourge of AIDS and many, many other problems.

I will therefore recommend, Mr Speaker, that we proceed to vote on this Bill and then recommend to the Portfolio Committee to bring amendments later in the course of the year, as they work them through and find consensus.  I thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  I think, presiding over this debate, I hear what the Premier is suggesting.  I can only go so far as to ask for one thing, and that is for the hon member who moved the amendments to withdraw them in the light of the Premier's request.  

MRS T E MILLIN:  In the light of the hon Premier's statement, I withdraw those amendments for the time being.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you from the hon member.  I can see a member wanting to speak.  Hon member, Mr Waugh.

MR J C N WAUGH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In the light of the withdrawal of the amendments, I would just like to announce that the National Party would then support the Bill.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Waugh.  That then concludes our debate on the Youth Commission Bill.  I now would like to put the Bill to the House.   

KWAZULU-NATAL YOUTH COMMISSION BILL, 1998 - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Bill has been passed.  I will now request the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Youth Commission Act, 1998.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That then takes care of 8.4 on the Order Paper.  I will now proceed with 8.5.  I have here in front of me a list of speakers and to open the debate is Minister Zuma.  I have here, in terms of the list, 30 minutes.  I am not sure how to reconcile that with the Rule.  I am bringing that to the attention of the Minister.

AN HON MEMBER:  He used 20 minutes yesterday in question time.  He has only got 10 left now.

8.5	DEBATE ON THE STATE OF THE PROVINCE ADDRESS BY THE  PREMIER.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Certainly I will not take a long time.  After all what has happened in the House I am sure the House would like to be relieved of long speeches.

Mr Speaker, in discussing the Premier's State of the Province address, I would like to highlight some points which I think need to be emphasised in our Legislature.

I would like to start with a statement I have often made, that this Province has a unique opportunity to influence other provinces in respect of the workings of multi-party democracy.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  We are making a positive contribution to the political and economic life of the country.  This is eloquently demonstrated by the manner in which we, in the main, conduct our business in this Legislature, notwithstanding the debate that took place today.  [LAUGHTER]

We have seven political parties represented and all these parties have an opportunity and the scope to play a role in the affairs of our Legislature.  This is certainly an important element which characterises the positive nature of the political life that governs our Province.  In the main, we have tried to put the interests of the Province and its people above party political interests.

Mr Speaker, I am saying this because I believe that good things need to be acknowledged.  We need to encourage each other to do even better than we have done so far.  One of the areas where we have shown in practice, that we are capable of working together, in a positive manner, is the National Council of Provinces.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  As a Province we have made a commendable impact on this structure of co-operative governance.

I think Mr Speaker, and hon members of this House will agree with me that the official opening of our Legislature is increasingly attracting more visitors who some few years ago would never have thought it very important to be with us when we open our Legislature.  I would like to believe that this is an indication that many today feel that they can learn something from us.  If we were doing it wrong, our colleagues from other provinces and from the National Government, would not be showing such an interest.  In other words, the co-operation we have shown among political parties has been an important political strength in the Provincial governance.

If we talk about the State of the Province, it is again important to show the same level and degree of co-operation within the Cabinet of this Province.  A recent illustration of this has been the manner in which the Cabinet jointly and collectively addressed the financial situation facing the Province.  We operated as one Provincial Government.  We went to meet the Deputy President as one unit.  No one sought to use the situation for party political gain.  This same cooperation was again demonstrated when faced with the Education crisis.  Cabinet acted in unity and engaged parents and teacher organisations as one united Provincial Government.

If anyone doubted the seriousness, commitment and political honesty of our Provincial Cabinet after this kind of clear and consistent co-operation, that person would have to have had their own agenda which is not in keeping with that of the Province and its people, who are what these parties are working for.  Such people, if there were,  would have to be scrutinised very closely so as to establish exactly whose interests they are serving.

Mr Speaker, it would not be a complete State of the Province address if we did not highlight the peace process.  Our efforts towards achieving peace have been the single most important positive contribution that we have made in this Province.  It has, relatively speaking, brought stability in the Province.  It has brought hope to our people.  It has encouraged investment, and has given us more confidence in the work that we do.

This kind of leadership that the political parties have demonstrated in this Province, mainly the leading two parties, has encouraged the private sector to take a leading role in the anti-crime campaign.  This campaign is once again an illustration of how effective the partnership can be between the private sector, government and other sectors of society.  Again this is an indication of the uniqueness of the manner in which we do things in this Province, and the potential we have to be one of the leading provinces in the country.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Mr Speaker, it is worth mentioning that the anti-crime campaign in the Province is gaining momentum.  The police, as one of the key elements in this campaign, are recording some successes, for example, the swift progress made in bringing to book the killer of the two Swedish tourists in Umhlanga.

You will all agree with me that the road safety campaign has been successfully led from this Province.  It is now an established fact that drivers from other provinces change their manner of driving as soon as they enter this Province.

It is also an established fact that this Province leads in terms of existing investment opportunities.

Mr Speaker, we need to know that there are a number of things we still need to address.  Among these is the question of achieving lasting peace in our Province.  This is the one task we cannot avoid because there is no alternative to peace, or if there is, it is too terrible to contemplate.

Second is the question of transformation of the sphere of Provincial Government.  We must make our Government a people-friendly institution.  I am very happy to say that the Premier, Dr Ben Ngubane, feels very strongly about this point as he speaks about the necessity of a lean and delivering structure of Government.

Thirdly, our main project is bringing delivery to our people.  In this respect, we must therefore take it as a given that the reprioritisation of budgets is a necessity if we are to succeed.  We certainly cannot continue to do things the way they have always been done.  On this point we are, once again, in agreement as a Provincial Government.

Mr Speaker, with all these relative successes, we should know that we have certainly raised the expectations of our people in the Province and in the country.  Some are saying the relative peace in the Province is not real.  Some believe that the people of KwaZulu-Natal cannot survive without violence in whatever form.  We must prove them wrong.  The way to do so is to put peace first in whatever strategy we adopt for the upcoming elections.  

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  We must conduct our campaigning in a manner that is conducive to maintaining the peace we have fought so hard to achieve in our Province.  Whilst campaigning as political parties, putting across our policies to the voters, we must do it in an orderly manner that does not inspire violence.  This, Mr Speaker, means that as the Legislature, we must work out some rules which will guide us during the elections.  The elections should not undo all that we have achieved since 1994.  

I am touching on this point, Mr Speaker, because, as you know, we are approaching elections and, indeed, parties tend to say a lot of things which, at times, tend to raise temperatures.  I want to appeal and agree with one speaker who made a proposal earlier, that this Legislature might even have to establish some mechanism to ensure that we are able to guide ourselves as we go into the process of elections.  It will really not make good sense, having achieved what we have achieved, to destroy it because we will be campaigning in 1999.

Mr Speaker, and hon members of this House, in whatever we do let us always put the interests of the Province above our party specific interests.  It would be the ideal situation if our political party interests, as well as individual interests, were to always give way to the Provincial and National interests.  I thank you, Mr Speaker, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Minister.  I now call upon Mr Aulsebrook.  You have nine minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Hear, hear, John.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hey, John, where have you been?  [LAUGHTER]

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to start by complimenting the Premier on an excellent address, an address that was accurate and painted a picture of our strengths and weaknesses in this Province.

Speakers, certainly on this side of the House, could stand up today and make speeches that would paint a very rosy picture of this Province, but what would be achieved by that?  The Premier has outlined the real situation, the problems we face amongst problems in education, with crime, budgetary constraints, cash-flow crises, and the aged problem.  To engage in a white-wash exercise would encourage complacency and condemn this Province to perpetual mediocrity to say the least.  By being frank and honest with ourselves, acknowledging our problems, we can begin to start treating them as challenges for the future.  That will give us, and the people of this Province, some hope.

In KwaZulu-Natal we tend to suffer from what can be termed as a branch mentality.

MR R M BURROWS:  Hear!   Hear!

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Typical of this is in business they tend to say we will wait and see what the head office in Johannesburg will tell us or instruct us.  In Government we may say we will see what National Government have to say.  Developers will say we are waiting for foreign investment.  This is rather a colonial attitude.  What we need to do is take the initiative.  We need to take the lead, get on and do the job that is needed to develop and grow this Province's economy.  Who better to lead the Province than the members of this House.  A positive attitude is what is needed, but there are so many who ask what is there to be positive about.  

Members of this House, we need to start counting our blessings.  In KwaZulu-Natal we are blessed with a sound and substantial industrial base.  We have two major ports.  We have a sound and healthy economy, a road network that is the envy of many a country, let alone provinces.  We have rich fertile soil for agriculture, a relative abundant water supply, a functioning tourist industry.  We have game parks and beautiful eco-tourists sites.

MR A RAJBANSI:  And no casino.  [LAUGHER]

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  And vast human resource potential.  This is just to name a few of our advantages over our neighbouring provinces and countries.

With this as our platform, we should be poised to launch our Province to great heights.  What stops us?  Nothing but our own attitude, the way we tend to see ourselves.  There are also amongst us those who boast about our achievements, and then rest on their laurels, not realising that we are only at the beginning and there is far better to come.

Mr Speaker, the issue of global competitiveness has become a buzz-word more often than not used by people who want to be seen as being knowledgable, but do not understand the seriousness of the situation.  This is a matter in which we have no choice as to whether or not to participate.  With globalisation we are a role player.  All countries are role players.  What is our choice - it is what role we wish to play.  We can participate fully, become competitive and trade actively in the international market.  Our Province is ideally situated to play such a role.  In doing this we will become a major asset to the rest of South Africa, providing benefits for our entire country.  We need to take the lead.

Alternatively, if we do nothing about becoming globally competitive, we become economically disadvantaged.  Disadvantaged is a word us politicians use regularly and often use it when specifically referring to previously disadvantaged, but are we going to allow this disadvantage to be projected into our future?  Do we want to become an economically disadvantaged Province or country?  

We have this tremendous potential for economic growth and that brings with it the resultant social upliftment.  Let us not, through complacency, allow this opportunity to pass us by.  The foundation is laid.  It is solid.  It is up to us to build an economic top structure that will see us into the next century.

I must caution that, as politicians, we are very often extremely destructive.  Here I would like to refer to the up and coming election campaign when too many of us tend to be short-sighted, focusing on short-term political gains, that result in long-term economic losses for our Province and country.  There are those who will go as far as digging up those solid foundations I spoke of earlier, so that they can possibly retain their seat in this House or else, for some other more sinister reasons.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, in spite of this Province's extensive social upliftment needs, with our potential for economic growth, and with a positive attitude by its people, we could promise and deliver to the people a far better future.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.   Mr Schutte, you have seven minutes.


ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, in two months' time the new South Africa will be four years old, but sadly there will be no reason for celebration.  In every important aspect affecting the lives of ordinary South Africans matters have deteriorated.

Despite the wildest ANC promises, unemployment has reached record levels, and is soaring.  The official unemployment figure is now 32,6%, and amongst the black population group as high as 41%.  Despite Gear's target of creating 250 000 employment opportunities, last year we have in fact lost
100 000 opportunities.  Every day, on average, at this stage 1 000 new job-seekers are entering the labour market, but every day, on average, at this stage we are losing 197 employment opportunities.  This means that every day, on average, 1 197 people are added to the unemployed people in South Africa.  Our formal unemployment is now at the 1981 level.  That is 17 years ago, and things are going to get worse.  The experience world-wide is that the more you regulate labour practices, the more you discourage the creation of employment.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, crime is at very high levels.  According to the latest Interpol report, South Africa has the fourth highest murder rate in the world.  We have the highest rape rate in the world.  Our murder rate is now 10 times the world average.  But when we raise this, the hon President accuses us of being unpatriotic.  It is exactly our patriotism which drives us in this respect.  Because we are loyal to this country we refuse to accept the present situation of degeneration as far as crime is concerned.  20 years ago South Africa was one of the most crime free countries in the world.  There is no reason why we should not again become a country of law and order and respect for life and property.  Unless that is restored, Mr Speaker, there will not be long-term progress in this country.

Education at all levels is in crisis.  One can only refer to the lower pass rate, and I need not even debate that.

Mr Speaker, sad as it is, this state of affairs was to be expected from the ANC, a party that is totally divided and that is rendered impotent by the division between communists, socialists and free marketeers; a party that has neither the expertise nor the commitment to ensure that Gear is successful or that crime is stamped out.

AN HON MEMBER:  What about the National Party losing?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, because this Province is not dominated by the ANC, and the ANC has the least support, one had reason to expect that this Province, like the Western Cape, could become an island of excellence.  This Province had every opportunity to become that.

It is therefore with great regret that I have to record our concern regarding recent developments in this Province, particularly relating to our financial situation.  The fact is that when a province with a budget of R16 billion does not have approximately R20 000 to fund an urgent or scheduled sitting of Parliament, then something is seriously wrong.  When there is over-expenditure of 10% of the budget, then something is also very seriously wrong, either with the political will or the administration, to adhere to financial discipline.  I add, Mr Speaker, I do not doubt the political will to stay within the budget.

Despite these problems, we are convinced that KwaZulu-Natal has the potential of becoming an island of excellence in the tumultuous South African ocean.  We, from the National Party, are also committed to make our contribution in this regard.

I propose briefly to deal with a number of initiatives that the National Party will take in this regard.

1.	This Parliament and the Executive, the highest bodies of this Province, must set the example of excellence.  We cannot expect the rest of the Province to be excellent if we do not set the example.  There must be regular parliamentary sittings dealing with everything Parliament should deal with in an efficient way.  To this end, we have already made a specific proposal which will ensure regular sittings and that matters are dealt with in an orderly way.  We will further pursue these proposals.

2.	As far as clean and transparent government is concerned, it is also important that we, as representatives, set the example.  To this end, we will soon make a specific proposals for a code of ethics for parliamentarians in the Province.

3.	An excellent province requires an excellent police force which has the confidence of the people.  The National Constitution specifically affords provinces the power to establish a commission to ensure effective policing and good community police relations.  We have prepared a Bill called the Promotion of Efficient Policing and Police/Community Relations Bill which provides for the establishment of such a Commission, and we have already submitted it to the Speaker to be referred to the relevant Committee.

4.	Regarding the financial and budgetary woes of the Province, we believe that the main reasons for the problems can be found in:

	-	the under-funding from National level;

	-	the unreasonable guidelines and demands being made from National level without funding being provided, so-called unfunded mandates;

	-	the absence of experienced internal auditors;

	-	the failure to implement decisions in this regard;

	-	administrative failure to implement Cabinet decisions, and

	-	the lack of effective executive oversight.

May I say this, Mr Speaker, I have great sympathy for the Premier in this regard, and I believe that he has done everything in his power to promote excellent financial discipline, and he has also very realistically dealt with these problems, but we have to address these aspects.  The hon member, Mr Haygarth, will come with specific proposals in this regard.

5.	The hon Premier has also, in his thanks to the Zulu Monarch, during the opening of Parliament, referred to the imperatives of culture and the need to acknowledge the KwaZulu Kingdom.  I cannot but applaud him.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I ask the hon member to wind up, please?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  All right.

	The rich cultural diversity of our peoples should be properly acknowledged.  Cultural and language rights should never be devalued, but should be enhanced without prejudicing the cultural rights of other groups.  We also believe that the Zulu Monarch and traditional leaders in this Province should be acknowledged properly and that the capital of this Province should be dealt with.  It is not good enough that we at this stage do not have certainty about these aspects.

For the sake of long-term stability we therefore believe that these aspects, as well as a multi-party government after the 1999 election, should be dealt with in a Constitution, and we will soon come with a proposal in this regard.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I now call upon Mr Mzobe.  Mr Mzobe, you have six minutes, sir.

MR M R MZOBE:  Thank you, sir.  Mr Speaker, hon members of the Provincial Legislature, whilst one is unequivocally and totally supportive and highly appreciative of the endeavours and the efforts that our Provincial Government is engaged in, particularly in the spheres of peace, social, political and economic stability as clearly articulated by the hon, the Premier, in his speech yesterday.

However Mr Speaker, it is my submission that the emasculation of the Provincial powers by the ruling party is even more than that which the National Party did when it destroyed the provincial system set up in 1910 at the time of Union.

It is common knowledge that the present Government is so vehemently opposed to the devolution and autonomy of provinces to such an extent that the political and administrative powers are concentrated in the hands of a few in the Central Legislature.

If the ANC led Government allowed the provinces to be autonomous South Africa would soon be one of the major industrial countries of the world, because provinces would be working on a competitive basis.

Mr Speaker, let me remind the citizens of South Africa and the hon members of this House, that Russia which ruled its 15 states, which were no less than castrated bulls, had to abdicate after more than 70 years of its rule. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M R MZOBE:  Our provinces are so emasculated that they are no less than the implementers of the cut and dried decisions of the Central Legislature.  It therefore comes as no surprise that our provinces are in such a chaotic situation.  

Mr Speaker, and hon members of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature, how can one expect stability and tranquillity in a country where the police are not responsible to the Ministers of Safety and Security in the provinces; when the administrative and political powers are vested in the Minister of Safety and Security in National Government.  Mr Speaker, I ask, how can there be law and order when the Provincial Commissioner receives his orders from the National Minister of Safety and Security and not the Minister on the ground?  

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

MR M R MZOBE:  The concentration of the political and administrative powers in the hands of a few in the Central Legislature has done devastating damage to the socio-economic stability of our country.  

When one considers the state of armed robberies in banks, fidelity vans in transit, murders, unlicensed firearms, rape, pension heists, unemployment, poverty, and safety of the country's citizens, it suggests that lawlessness in this country has reached the most unprecedented proportions.

All these factors vindicate the fact that power must be devolved from the Central Legislature to the second and third tier levels of Government in order that people may feel the touch of democracy.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One last minute.

MR M R MZOBE:  Mr Speaker, as far as I am concerned, at this point in time, we are far from democracy.  The struggle for democracy is only beginning now.

Mr Speaker, if you consider the situation of education in this country, the prevailing circumstances in education, one finds that education falls within both the competencies of provincial and National departments, however the final word insofar as the budget is concerned is with the Central Minister and his Department.  But, when the chips are down, the Minister and his cohorts choose to blame the Minister of Education here in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

MR M R MZOBE:  The Minister of National Education, as far as I am concerned, and his cohorts are all out to destroy the image and credibility of this Province and the Department of Education which is headed by the Minister of Education.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.  Time is up for the hon member.

MR M R MZOBE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to the Central Legislature that it considers devolution of power to the second and the third levels of Government.  Even ~Amakhosi~ in the so-called White Paper are not considered.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will request the hon members to understand that when time is up, it is up.  It is not the time for concluding, please.  I am mentioning this because I do not think we will accommodate it for everybody.  Otherwise it would cause problems.  So nobody in future must expect that leniency.  

Mr Burrows, you have six minutes, sir.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I think all of us were pleased at the positive tone in the address of the hon, the Premier, and I think all of us in this House would echo the good intentions that we all have that in the nature of the changing society in KwaZulu-Natal that there be an emphasis of optimism, of hope, of opportunity, within this Province.  I think it is that kind of reflection that all of us should be echoing, but that does not allow us to lose sight of the key areas that need to be emphasised, both in his speech and from society, as a whole.

First of all, we need to reflect that within our society in this Province, the 8 000 000 of us, we have a highly complex society.  We have a number of languages, a number of so-called races.  We have people in labour, in business competing.  We have young and old, although the young appear to be getting more and more every day, and the old seem to be disappearing.  We have urban and rural, and they compete with one another in terms of resources.

When we come to the state of provincial funding, I am pleased to see that the Premier has emphasised the importance that we reprioritise our programmes.  Because if there is one thing that we have got to make quite sure about in this Province, it is the old adage that if they do not eat, we do not sleep.  That applies throughout this House.  We have got to make sure that people are well fed, they are well educated, their health is looked after, their old age is cared for in terms of social pensions, and they have a property that they can live on.  That must apply to everybody, sir.

Secondly, we need to review our efficiency and the effectiveness of current operations.  The phrase from the Premier's debate does then go on to reflect on the key way of doing things in Government.  Really here I want to emphasise, and it has been a matter I have raised previously, that apart from a zero-based budgeting, the necessity of looking at our budgetary expenditure, we need to analyse each of the 185 000 posts in this Provincial Administration to see how it is being utilised, where it is being utilised, and to ask some very fundamental questions.

The Americans have a very nice phrase to describe the use of a particular post.  The phrase they use is "feather-bedding".  Now "feather-bedding" is a job which still exists even when the task that was called for originally has disappeared.  So you might have had a job created 30 years ago, and somebody occupying it.  Now we have got computers, you do not need that person, but the person is still there.  I want to tell you we have such people within this Government, within the 180 000 we have in this Province.  So we have got to guard against "feather-bedding".

Secondly, sir, we have to audit the performance of each of the individuals who are occupying the posts because from that point of view, and it is emphasised in the Task Team's report, and I know the Premier has picked it up there as well, that if officials do not answer correspondence, do not answer telephone calls, messages are not taken, then I want to tell you what happens, people will come to ~Ulundi~ or Pietermaritzburg, or wherever the office is, and they will waste more and more time.  It is highly inefficient not to have a good administration.  Requirements in this respect are the political will to discipline people when they do not do the job they are expected to perform.

Against that we have a considerable number of officials who are giving unpaid overtime, who are committed to their task, and I want to say those people are being robbed by the inefficient and the ineffective within our administration.

Sir, the other area I want to touch on are the pressures in our society by individuals and groups which are not possible for the Government at National or Provincial level to deliver on.  It cannot be everything to everybody.  

Clem Sunter wrote a book.  One of the articles within it gave the title to the book.  It was "Pretoria will provide, and other myths".  As it happens in this Province, "~Ulundi~ will provide, and other myths".  ~Ulundi~ cannot provide everything.  People need to get it into their skulls, sir, that it is not going to be possible that everybody will have everything immediately.

Here I must issue a warning.  We are treading on very, very dangerous ground, politically, party-politically and racially, if there is an emphasis that my group or my political party are not getting!  Because I want to tell you in this Province we have got such extreme comparisons of those who have and those who do not have, that those who have are going to have to give up some of the things they have had in the past, and those who have never had have got to get.  That has got to be a political message that all seven parties in this House have got to go out and give and not compete on, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One more minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you.  We need to grow the economy.  We need to address the obstructions in the economy.  Colleagues have said crime is one of them, both violent crime and white collar crime.  

The other is the obstruction sometimes by unions who hold up the whole process of redeployment of staff, for example.

AN HON MEMBER:  You still hate them.

MR R M BURROWS:  No, I do not hate the unions.  I used to be there myself, and you know it.

Another area is the public servants who slow the process down when things should be actually getting faster to transform the economy.  We have got to get those things.

At the end of the day, good management, discipline, delivery, we must all be committed to.  Then we can be optimistic about the future of this Province.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Burrows.  I now call upon Mrs Ford.  The hon member has five minutes.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Firstly, allow me to congratulate the hon Premier on his comprehensive State of the Province address, notwithstanding any omissions for which he has since apologised.

Mr Speaker, I will address a section of the Premier's speech, namely, the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions.

I commend the hon Minister, Prince Gideon Zulu, on his intensive investigations into corruption and fraud in the delivery of this service to the needy of our Province.  Well done, sir.  I am sorry he is not here to hear me.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS O E FORD:  We have been advised that re-registration of pensioners will be started by 1 June.  I take this opportunity to make an appeal to the Department to ensure that all the necessary mechanisms are in place before the starting date of this re-registration, otherwise it will be those poorest of the poor, whose only hope of survival is the pension or grant, who will suffer unbearable deprivation.

Mr Speaker, last year, at a National Council of Provinces meeting in Cape Town, the Child Care Bill was discussed, and the hon Minister, Mrs Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, stated that the "Master Plan" of the National Department is, firstly, a child care grant of R100 per month up to the age of seven years.  The reason this grant ends at that age is because the schools feeding scheme follows on from there.  We all know that the schools feeding scheme is not really operational.

The hon Minister went on to state that free health care, free education, and housing subsidies are further steps in social security assistance.

My problem is that no plans or suggestions were made as to how that portion of the population, who benefit from these grants, could be self-empowered to lessen their dependence on the State.

This so-called "Master Plan", Mr Speaker, sounds more like ANC hog-wash to me.

The child care/maintenance grants are being held up in certain cases.  Those children in possession of KwaZulu birth certificates, which have no ID number, find the Department will not accept these applications without ID numbers.  The Department of Home Affairs is unable to assist these applicants as they do not have the staff to process the transfer of birth certificates from the old KwaZulu system to the computerised system.  This, Mr Speaker, is one facet that must be addressed by both Ministries.

A further question in my mind is whether the National Department is aware of the fact that the number of pensioners increases every year, and because of the effect of AIDS, amongst other things, the number of child care grant applications will increase.  Where is the money coming from when the budget to the Province is cut every year?

Child abuse is also a problem to be dealt with by this Department.  I am not just talking about physical abuse, which I consider to be totally abhorrent, but also mental abuse.

I would like to describe an occasion when I witnessed the effect mental abuse has on children and women.  At a meeting I attended, before the meeting started, gunshots were fired at IFP supporters, and, to my utter astonishment, all the children and women fell flat on their faces as an automatic reaction.  

Mr Speaker, my own reaction, as this was the first time I had been in this type of situation, was to stand upright and think to myself that if I fell flat on my face I would get dirty.  That occasion brought home to me the terrible mental abuse these women and children have been exposed to.  

I would like to add my voice to the plea that, with the elections coming up, we only have a year to go, please, let us have peace in our Province.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mrs Ford.  I now wish to call upon the hon Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Rajbansi, you have got five minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, thank you very much.  I want to praise the hon Premier, if he is listening, for his excellent speech.  I think what is important is that when a speech is made and that speech is backed up with results and hard work, then that State of the Province speech has great worth in it.  That is why I want to compliment the hon Premier.

I concur with the sentiments expressed by the hon Mr Burrows, and I think in the civil service code, in the Government code, there is a nice phrase, "economy and efficiency".  In every corner of this Province we must sing that phrase.  Are you economic?  Are you efficient?  Or are we running this country efficiently?  I think we can tell the whole country that we are setting an excellent leadership in our good governance programme.  

There is one important factor which the media do not highlight.  When people are caught for acts of corruption or fraud, that the initiative to catch those wrong-doers has been taken either at the level of the Minister or at the, shall I say, effort or initiation of the Department.  So internally there is a cleansing process, but as the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism has stated, we boast in this Province of real multi-party democracy.  

I think if anyone says we are in opposition or there are opposition parties, there should be no majority party or minority party for the 10 years after the liberation election.  What we need is one development party.  We must rise above party politics and give the development of our country, development of our under-privileged people, the highest priority.  

There is a nice dictum in respect of the allocation of funds that "Money shall be given to where the need exists the greatest".  If all accept that principle, there will be no problem.  At the same time we must also give the message to our citizens that change has a price tag.  Sometimes the fiscus cannot afford the price of change.  I want to suggest to the hon Premier, and also the leaders of all the political parties, to explain to the citizens of this Province, and also to the citizens of this country, why it is not possible to provide adequate funding for our services, because the gap between the have and the have-nots in every sphere of human life in this country has been very wide.  

Just to equalise education alone, if you take the entire budget of the country, it will not be sufficient.  Therefore, when at the meeting of the Education Task Group, our hon Premier made reference to trust, and even when he delivered his State of the Province speech, he gave a message about a partnership Government, partnership between public and private enterprise.  Even at the lowest level, at the level of Local Government, at the level of our ordinary schools, we have to have a partnership between the community, and the Government and without this partnership which was highlighted by our President of this country, and our Deputy President also, that we must send this message, that if we want to make progress there has to be partnership.

I want to suggest to the hon Premier, I have been to Dubai, let us have a message about Dubai.  Dubai is called the shopping Mecca of the world.  Its development is great, by simple people.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute more.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The shopping capital of Dubai is not the Pavilions.  It is Nasser(? Square where the small entrepreneur is encouraged.  The world goes to trade in Dubai at Nasser Square, not the great shopping centres.

That is why I emphasise that we are not doing enough for the informal sector.  We are not doing enough for the small entrepreneur or the small, medium and macro enterprises.  

What about considering Durban as a duty-free port.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  We want to expand Durban.  Let us take the initiative.  Look at the duty-free facilities in Dubai.  Look at the countries where you have duty-free facilities.  What is disturbing in this Province is that in the process of transformation we are getting, to a certain extent, some racial polarisation.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I want to suggest that on a multi-party basis we must have, shall I say, inter-racial, non-racial rallies.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.  Thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Nice try, Raj.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  On my amended list I call upon Mr Rehman for five minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Hear!  Hear!  He went to Dubai too.  [LAUGHTER]

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Speaker, I would like to commence with complimenting our hon Premier, Dr Ngubane, for his unequivocal commitment to transparency and efficiency.  The hon Premier has striven to make the Province of KwaZulu-Natal a "Gateway" Province.  His positive thinking, focused objectives, and competence, has laid important strides for all of us.  The hon Premier's vision of a "traveller who embarks on a long journey without a road map is likely to get lost along the way," clearly has a message for all of us.

The crisis in KwaZulu-Natal stumbles from bad to worse on an almost daily basis.  The hon National Minister of Education, Professor Sibusiso Bengu, is stuck in a broken-down school bus with four deflated tyres, no spare tyre and no manual, which puts him on a par with so many of the pupils in his schools.  During my recent visit to two rural schools, I realised that this situation has finally reached its lowest ebb.  Some of the problems include inaccessible roads, physical facilities, shortage of classrooms, lack of space.  Mr Speaker, the list is endless.

The "uproar" over the lack of cleaning staff in our schools is attenuated to heights, whilst there are schools with only one pit toilet to cater for the entire school, apart from deteriorating physical conditions.  Schools are struggling with the physical after-effects of the ideological planning of the past era.  The budgetary restraints have really heightened this problem in KwaZulu-Natal.  Hence we should do everything possible to curb over-spending and get to the root of mismanagement which, as we all know, our hon Premier is leaving no stones unturned.

Equally, we all agree that funding must be spread equitably to give all children the best possible start in life.  KwaZulu-Natal has been consistently criticised for the weakness in their education system, and not everyone appreciates the enormous challenge we are faced with.  We should acknowledge that KwaZulu-Natal is the most densely populated province in the country.  We have the largest pupil population of about 2 800 000 school-going children.  

Mr Speaker, despite the education debacle, KwaZulu-Natal has been competitive and entrepreneurial.  The Provincial growth and development strategy is a major directive for KwaZulu-Natal, ensuring that KwaZulu-Natal becomes the winning Province in leading the way forward.

We, as trend-setters, would have to create a culture of learning and literacy which would lead to empowerment, and empowerment is critical for nation-building and democracy.  The difficulties we are faced with in KwaZulu-Natal are sacrosanct or normal, yet the hon Premier, and his colleagues in the Cabinet, have striven above this.  

Agricultural development under the auspices of hon Minister Singh has had an array of exciting initiatives.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute left.

MR M F REHMAN:  Economic development through visits by tourists is of fundamental importance in rural areas.  Rural areas should not be overlooked when development takes place.

Mr Speaker, I would like to humbly request the hon Provincial Minister of Transport, I see he is absent here this afternoon, but I am sure colleagues will take this message to him, to prioritise the construction of a road between the ~Ulundi~ Holiday Inn and ~Umfolosi~ Game Reserve so that this game reserve is easily accessible to tourists.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTION

MR M F REHMAN:  If we appreciate the many positive developments, and work together to build them, then I am confident that we can take this Province to new heights.  It is imperative that we work together to realise and release the potential of this beautiful Province.  KwaZulu-Natal has definitely taken the high road.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rehman.  I now wish to call upon Mrs Downs.  You have five minutes, hon member.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I must say I am very disappointed that the Premier is not in the House at the moment.

AN HON MEMBER:  We are taking notes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I am very glad to hear that.  I started talking about the state of the Province last year when we dealt with the budget, and at that time I actually pointed out that the budgetary constraints would make it impossible for this Province to deliver.  I think that my speech has been borne out by the facts that have overtaken us.  I just want to make a comment that if we do not get a fair allocation in this Province we cannot run the Province and we cannot deliver what has to be delivered.  I know that I am sounding like a cracked record on this issue, but I will continue to do so until we get our fair allocation.

AN HON MEMBER:  What is fair?

MRS J M DOWNS:  It is exacerbated by historical non-delivery in this Province, and historical under-funding.  The people that are paying for it are the people of our Province.

Now I would like to focus particularly on three areas, and that is Health, Welfare and Education, because I feel that sometimes we actually let the budgetary constraints stop us from thinking in innovative ways.  

Our State hospitals in this Province are excellent, and the problem with them being excellent is that it causes people from other provinces to use our health facilities.  I have it on good authority that there are many people coming from Mpumalanga, from the Free State, from Mozambique, from Swaziland and from the Transkei to use our health facilities.  Have we ever attempted to regain that money, particularly from the other provinces, and to prevent non-nationals from using our facilities?

It is also common cause that a specific hospital on the South Coast, I am using it as an example, but there are other hospitals that practice this, because maybe of a lack of administrative ability, the hospitals are not collecting the fees which are due to them.  That needs to be addressed more and more relevantly.

The second Department I want to speak about is the Welfare Department.  We have the same problem in the Welfare Department as we have in the Health Department.  People from other provinces come here to collect social pensions which have not been provided for them.  I want to ask the Minister of Welfare whether he has made any provision for the migrant labourers who are coming back to KwaZulu-Natal to retire?  We need to call on National Government to examine that aspect as well.

AN HON MEMBER:  The Bible says love thy neighbour.

MRS J M DOWNS:  The second thing is the impact of the gold mine retrenchments in Gauteng.  Many of the people that are being retrenched currently in Gauteng, and are going to be retrenched, are from this Province, and they will be returning to this Province, and there are many of them, estimates of nearly 100 000, which is going to impact considerably on our budget for the following financial year.  I do not think that we have made any provision for them.

The third Department I want to talk about is the Education Department.  Here there are very real budgetary constraints and very real problems.  It is time for decisive and innovative leadership in education.  At the moment it is like a ship without a rudder.  It is being pounded around by all the crises that are happening.  I know that we cannot allocate budgets, for example, for security, but there are other things that we can do.  The people of this Province, as the Premier so rightly pointed out, have a great willingness to assist and to get involved.  If we have a bold policy formulation and decisive leadership in education, we can actually resolve the crisis.  That is not happening at the moment, and I do not believe that the Minister is standing behind the administration enough in education, to actually assist them in the very difficult political decisions that have to be made.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute left.

MRS J M DOWNS:  The last point that I want to make is that we in the ACDP are joining with the people in the Province to try and help wherever we can.  We do not have resources to give huge amounts of money and so on, but what little we have, we are willing to give.  In this respect we have done a number of things in this Province.  

The first thing is that we have sourced money to train every single policemen in 22 police stations and four satellites in Northern KwaZulu-Natal.  Every single policemen is going to be trained on how to deal with rape victims and child abuse victims.  We have done that.

The second thing that we have done is we are in the process of sourcing funds from overseas to train policemen in the greater Durban area in the very same issues on a three-year basis.  That is a lot of money and I believe that we are about 90% of the way along the road for that and that will be available.

From the ACDP's point of view, we pledge that we will join hands with the Government of this Province to assist and make sure that we can help like other citizens of this country, like Business Against Crime, and other people are doing.  To help at a very practical level, not just talk, help, to actually make our Province a better place.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I want to tell you that I would not, for all the tea in China, live anywhere else except in KwaZulu-Natal.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  You will notice that your lists are written that the next speaker is going to be Mr Mwelase.  I am reliably informed that that is a typing error.  It should in fact be Mr Mvelase.  I now call upon the hon member, Mr Mvelase.  
MR V V MVELASE: TRANSLATION: Thank you, Mr Speaker, because I was very angry, that it should be said that I am Mazibuko, that my surname is Mazibuko, whereas in fact, I am Mthembu, Ngosi.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

MR V V MVELASE:  Mr Speaker, sir, and hon members, I rise to support and congratulate the hon Premier on the speech given last night.   

In the walk of life, there are times of happiness, times for sadness, times for difficulties and times for sorrows.  Our Zulu idiom says:.  The interpreter will interpret that.  I agree with the Premier that many departments are delivering social services and infrastructure.  It is a fact that a large portion of our civil service and Provincial workforce is honest, dedicated and hard-working.  This is much appreciated.  We must not be intimidated by the difficulties we are facing now.

We must find ways and means to overcome the situation.  Unity, knowledge, experiences of men and women in this House must find the solution if we are serious about the state of affairs we are facing.  Party politics will not solve the problems.  The combination of knowledge and experience will remedy the situation.  If a small country like Japan managed to build itself and become one of the leading countries in technology, why can we not build ourselves and become world suppliers of food, as our Province has got agricultural resources which could improve the quality of life and promote the development of a progressive and prosperous economy.  Why can we not empower our community to promote the agricultural economy and environmental resources.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR V V MVELASE:  It is disappointing to see young men and women leaving their rural homes and going to towns to seek work while there are large lands which could be cultivated to produce food for sale to the nearest towns.  The Government must establish agricultural institutions and training centres to promote agriculture and environmental resources, Mr Singh.

Mr Speaker, coming to the problem of education in our country, this is a matter of great concern.  We cannot agree to keep under-qualified teachers forever.  The Government must finance those teachers who have served for some time, they must further their education as we welcome qualified teachers.  Colleges must accept them and get bursaries from the government and private sector.  Our children must get good a education, hence we need qualified teachers to give our children quality education.  We thank and appreciate our under-qualified teachers for assisting our schools, more especially in the rural areas where most of the qualified teachers were refusing to serve.

The Department of Education and Culture must see that all qualified teachers are appointed permanently with immediate effect.  Those under-qualified teachers who have served for some time must go to the colleges for training.  The Government must assist them and pay their fees.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute left.

MR V V MVELASE:  In conclusion, sir, I wish to emphasise that there is no room for lazy and dishonest civil servants.  Corruption and stealing from the Government cannot be tolerated.  Such people must be removed from the civil service because they are destroying the country.

Sir, I just want to record my strongest complaint against the SABC which ignored this sitting.  The proceedings of this parliamentary sitting never appeared on TV programmes.  This must be investigated because KwaZulu-Natal citizens are also paying TV licences like all the other citizens of South Africa.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Mvelase.  I have the honour of calling upon the hon member Nkwali yeNkosi.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Baba Somlomo, I also want to add my voice in congratulating the Premier on his State of the Province speech, as well as on his vote of thanks on His Majesty's address.

Mr Speaker, in his speech the Premier did not attempt to make any false promises of a rosy future.  Instead he challenged the people of this Province to gird up their loins and face the difficulties in unity.

We, of the PAC, are happy to accept the challenge from the Premier.  We will always do our best to make our humble contribution towards peace and unity in this Province.  We are proud to be partners in the effort to develop this Province to be the number one Province, which it is.  

Mr Speaker, this Province is blessed with all forms of resources, including human resources, but the question is are we using or harnessing these resources correctly?  This Province has, in terms of human resources, all kinds of people.  Green, yellow, black, you name them, and what is most important is that this Province has the healthiest people in the country, if not, in the whole of Africa.  We have well-built people, strong men and women.  If you look around here akekho uthondo la, isichwe [thondo is not here].  These people are also grown up and they are all fit.

Mr Speaker, the Premier raised the issue of prioritisation.  What does that mean?  What do we mean by prioritisation?  The PAC understands prioritisation to mean that we should start by redressing the ills of the past 300 years.  Whatever resources we have we believe those resources must start off by redressing the iniquities of the past.  

For instance, we are talking about education.  On Friday a team of members of this Legislature visited some schools away in the country towards Port Shepstone.  Some of you saw it on television.  It is distressing that in such a "rich" country there are children who are in schools without windows, without floors, without roofs.

MR V A VOLKER:  Were they built without windows?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  The National Party did not build any schools.  The people built the schools, but they did not have money to put in windows.  They did not have enough money to put in windows.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  That is what happened.  We are pleading with the Premier.  Perhaps we will say more when we discuss the question of the budget tomorrow, but as for now, we are pleading with the Premier and all those involved to consider our people, because they are all our people, to stop being selfish.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  10 seconds left.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Let us move away and do the opposite of what the dictum says in the Bible, that those who have will be given more, and those who have not, even the little that they have, will be taken away from them.  Let us reverse it.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I now call upon the hon member, Mr Ngema, Madlokovu.

MR M V NGEMA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the hon Premier, in his speech yesterday, raised his grave concern about the status given to Rural Traditional Communities and our traditional authority structures, in terms of lack of allocation of resources for development and lack of capacity.

By way of emphasis I would like to call the attention of this House, indeed, the attention of the entire country, to a very disturbing phenomenon, which is occurring in the African rural areas, as a result of matters related to our traditional way of life and Ubukhosi, not yet addressed by the Constitution of our land.

I am referring to the so-called Land Reform process being implemented in rural communities founded upon the traditional communal land tenure system.

What is actually going on?  Why is the traditional African communal land tenure being destroyed?

It is common knowledge, Mr Speaker, that blacks hold a system of land tenure that entrusts the whole of the tribal land to the respective ~Inkosi~s.  However, the land reform processes as they proceed at Vryheid, respectively undermine the tribal institutions, if not, entirely abolishing them.  Some land reform processes are being implemented in the following farm areas.  These are white farms within tribal lands, such as Vrischgewacht farm, Kwa Xama, Berdina, that is, Mngazini.  All of the aforementioned farms fall under the jurisdiction of the ~Inkosi~ Khambi Zulu.  

Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, ~Inkosi~ Zulu was not informed or consulted in all the activities that have so far taken place within his territory.   Land Affairs sees itself as implementing a Land Reform programme.  A community that has been occupying land is organised into a trust.  This becomes divisive in cases where this land, which was considered State land, falls within the total land area of an ~Inkosi~.  The people of the community become trustees and in many cases the ~Inkosi~ and izinduna are not included, and have no say whatsoever in matters relating to that land.

~Inkosi~ B M Buthelezi at Nolangeni finds himself without an alternative, as there is no guiding position paper that advises what has to be done in case of invasion by land reforms, but he has to take part.  The transformation of this tribal authority into a trust farm is going on, if not, already finished.

The land reforms are also affecting Thembitshe Buthelezi tribal community, an area just across Isekhwebezi River and adjoining Enyokeni.  It is also important to note, Mr Speaker, that as a result of these reforms tension has emerged in the relationship between the ~Inkosi~ of this area, that is, the ~Inkosi~ concerned is within Magudu magisterial district, and iZulu Eliphezulu, that is, His Majesty, the King.

The Legislature should pay attention to this process in rural African communities.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  30 seconds left for the member.

MR M V NGEMA:  We know that the creation of the modern capitalist society in Western Europe demanded the destruction of communal land, and ruthless replacement of this communal land tenure with private ownership of land.

It seems the same process is being implemented in our rural African communities.  Is this the road we want to use in our journey to modernity?  This emphatically is not in the interests of African people and their way of life.

This matter calls for more careful scrutiny, debate and consideration by rural community representatives, ~Amakhosi~, political parties and the Government.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Ngema.  After Mr Ngema I cal upon Mr Haygarth.  You have got six minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, several points.  First of all, the subject of under-funding, and this is always debated very seriously.  I accept that in our view we are under-funded insofar as the past and our needs for the current period of time is concerned.

Every other province, of course, in the Republic is similarly faced with that problem.  We have to accept, in a way, that while Gauteng and the Western Cape are well funded not in their view, there has to be the Fiscal and Financial Commission which makes a decision, and they are in dispute with the Department of Finance.  Whatever happens, when that amount is made available to us, as a group here, we cannot alter that budget that is given to us by National.  That is the first thing.  We cannot just over-spend because we believe we are under-provided for.

Secondly, there is a clash in respect of National policy in regard to education, welfare and health with what the budgetary considerations will meet.  We have been through this.  There are insufficient funds for the ideals which the ANC created in the minds of the electorate.  There are insufficient funds to meet those ideals at the present time.  Both of these factors mean that there is insufficient funding for what we want to achieve.

It has happened that in the past year we over-spent seriously.  You simply cannot afford to be lax on financial discipline.  What you have got is what you have to spend and no more.  The Government has taken this seriously.  First of all, this year we are suffering a penalty, in the form of the interest, on the overdraft that was created through the cash-flow problem.  That is the first one.

The second one, the Government is moving to pass legislation which provides a penalty for those who over-spend the budget.  The provinces are spending a major portion of the National budget, and if all over-spend, the impact on the budget deficit is material.  Therefore they simply cannot afford to have this year's position repeated in subsequent years, and they are talking of very serious penalties in that respect.  We need to be very careful in the way in which we approach that problem.

However, that does not mean to say, that we do not have to examine means of adjusting our budget with a view to coming to grips with our problem.  One of the points which was mentioned both by Minister Zuma, and my colleague, Mr Burrows, is this question of rationalisation.

Let me give the Department of Transport as an example, in the sense that for years they have been suffering reductions in the real amount of expenditure they can incur on construction and maintenance.

AN HON MEMBER:  When Mr Bartlett was Minister of Transport.

MR G HAYGARTH:  I am not talking about the National.  I am talking about the Provincial.  

There is this problem.  In my view, I do not believe that sufficient adjustments have been made to the staff establishment.  I would think that there is a lot of equipment lying around that is idle.  That is a fact, because people are being offered the opportunity to provide material to keep the plant and the operators going.  That is not a good situation.  Clearly there is the need for rationalisation which has been mentioned.

I want to have a little wry smile at Mr Burrows' comment on his quote from Clem Sunter that "Pretoria will provide, and other myths".  I am glad he accepts that statement, that Pretoria simply cannot provide, neither can ~Ulundi~ provide all that we would like.  It is a myth.

MR R M BURROWS:  Will you tell Mr Edwards not to criticise my thousand teachers....

MR G HAYGARTH:  That is right.  That is right.  I have already done so.  

There we are in this situation that we simply cannot spend what we would like to spend, and we need to abide by it.  Let me just give you a quick example, Mr Speaker, the Department of Education.  There are two vacant sites on which the Department pays rates.  There is somebody who is willing to build a private school on those sites, lease it from the Department and pay them a rental, and come to an agreement that should the Department ever want it for a school, they would come to an adjustment with the parties concerned in regard to any compensation etcetera.  It has a number of tax advantages for the developer.  It provides schooling in the private sector, but the answer from the Education Department - not interested.

What I am saying is we talked about people who have got innovative ideas, and the need to exercise those innovative ideas to make change.  I do not think that message is getting down to the people in the Department who operate.  I think that is very important.

I also want to say in respect of people who are adopting innovative attitudes to control expenditure, and the Minister of Health is an example.  They had the courage, in the same way as the Premier has had the courage, to make substantial cuts and these things.  The Minister of Health has had cuts made on renal dialysis, which I think was a courageous issue and that is the type of thing that we need to have from all our departments in this matter.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  30 seconds left.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  I now call upon the hon member, Mr Gwala, for 12 minutes, please.

MR M B GWALA:  Mr Speaker, and the hon House, I have listened attentively to what the Premier of the Province had to say regarding the State of the Province address.  The Premier has touched on various issues which are bread and butter issues that are relevant to our present day needs and situation.

I have decided to talk about the boring subject to some members of Parliament.  A subject that has been neglected by certain individuals here in this House and by a section of our community who have been hoodwinked by political parties.  I am talking here about the institution of Ubukhosi, which has been disregarded purposely by the Government of South Africa.

Mr Speaker, I just want to remind your House that whatever efforts you are trying to make to improve the quality of life for the people of KwaZulu-Natal, or for South Africa, without the participation of ~Amakhosi~, the progress will automatically be hindered as a large portion of the population of our society feel threatened.

The Ubukhosi institution has been politically prostituted by evil forces aimed at crippling it in the same way as it happened during the French Revolution.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  How can you speak about your party like that?

MR M B GWALA:  There are those who, in their minds, classify ~Amakhosi~ as second-class citizens, and that the traditional authorities and the Kingdom of KwaZulu, in particular, is just something like "The Bold and the Beautiful", and therefore must be kept away from any public engagement and progress.

The issue of the Zulu Kingdom is not a mere local matter.  It is not mere South African politics.  The Zulu Kingdom is the supreme historic monument of the entire continent of Africa, similar to Kemet or Ancient Egypt.  The Zulu Kingdom belongs to the pride of Africa.

The dramatic history of the Zulu Kingdom is actually the dramatic history of a large part of the continent of Africa, a drama in which the leaders of the kingdom, and the generals of the kingdom, were the main actors and actresses on centre stage.

That is the source of fame of the Zulu Kingdom in Africa, in Europe and in the world at large.  Without mention of the Zulu Kingdom, the history of Africa is short of dramatic heroism, dramatic creation and the extension of nationhood and dramatic birth of new kingdoms.

The rule of King Shaka transformed the shape of the whole of Southern Africa, resulting in the formation of new kingdoms led by Zulu generals in what is now Zimbabwe, what is now Malawi, what is now Zambia, and what is now the Democratic Republic of Congo.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR M B GWALA:  The Zulu Kingdom does not threaten any nation.  It does not threaten the unity of our nation, and does not threaten the constitutional rights of any person or group or community in the country.

It has live roots in the living tradition of a very significant section of the population of the country.  The Zulu Kingdom is the pride and the supreme historic monument of the entire continent of Africa.

King Shaka was not only the founder of the Zulu nation, but also a leading figure on the entire African continent.

I was therefore surprised to learn from the Sunday Times of 21 September, last year, about King Shaka being rated 59th out of the 100 top military leaders the world has known.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR M B GWALA:  Michael Lannings in his book, "The 100 Most Influential Military Leaders", places George Washington at the top of his list, followed by people such as Adolf Hitler, Julius Caesar, Norman Schwarzkopf and Genghis Khan.

MR A RAJBANSI:  And Churchill.

MR M B GWALA:  King Shaka comes from the second largest continent in the world.  Two outstanding African historians, namely, Dr Chancellor Williams, in his book, Mr Speaker, "The Destruction of African Civilisation", and Dr Cheik Diop of Senegal in his book, have expressed the view that King Shaka was the greatest military genius ever produced on the continent of Africa during pre-colonial times.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M B GWALA:  These two gentlemen also came to the conclusion that King Shaka united the Zulu people, in the preparation for the impending white invasion.

AN HON MEMBER:  And good for them.

MR M B GWALA:  It is also argued that King Shaka's "scorched earth policy" which he introduced to fight ~Inkosi~ Zwide was later used by other military leaders in Mongolia, for example.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  And Russia.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we allow the hon member to proceed?

MR M B GWALA:  Nevertheless, bearing in mind Shaka's innovative genius as a military strategist and his dominant position in Africa as the second largest continent in the world, everyone must surely agree that his ranking of the 59th out of 100 military leaders is a highly subjective ranking, reflecting the author's Eurocentric bias and lack of knowledge of historical events in Africa.  The fact that King Shaka was the greatest African military strategist in Africa, is undisputed and beyond doubt.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I allow Mr Rajbansi to say what he has to say.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I rise on a point of correction.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, Mr Rajbansi, there is no point of correction in our Rules.  Proceed, Mr Gwala.

MR M B GWALA:  Mr Michael Lannings, the author I have referred to, bases his theory not on facts, but on a gross distortion of historic events.  This is what has prompted me to correct this example of misleading information, not only of the Zulu people, but also of the entire African continent.

Mr Lannings' rating distorts the fact that prior to King Shaka's unification of the different clans, the Zulu clan, isizwe, was the tiniest of them all.  The fact of the matter is that King Shaka, great as he was, was no. 10 in the Zulu dynasty.  Furthermore, the Zulu idizwe was the only one that had a well-organised burial place where all ~Amakhosi~ are buried up to this day.  Emakhosini, in the Babanango district is in fact, very similar to the Valley of the Kings in Ancient Egypt from where the Zulu people migrated southwards as they say in Zulu "Sehla ngesilulu" meaning the papyrus canoe.

I just want to ask Mr Michael Lannings which criteria was used to rate King Shaka no. 59 out of 100?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  But what has it got to do with the debate.

MR M B GWALA:  How did that gentleman come to the conclusion that the first 58 leaders were better than King Shaka?   

AN HON MEMBER:  He was wrong.

MR M B GWALA:  Is George Washington placed on the top of the list because he comes from the United States of America, and King Shaka right down because he is considered a kaffir leader from the rural areas of KwaZulu, although he was a unifier of the Zulu nation?  

The above case only serves to illustrate an issue which needs to be urgently and seriously addressed in our schools and in our country.  This is that history needs to be rewritten, in order to eliminate the Eurocentric perspective of African and South African history, in order to reflect events in a more balanced and Africanist way.  This will help to engender in our youth a feeling of pride and strong identification with the African soil which we have now reclaimed.

I wish to thank His Excellency, Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi, for his efforts and courage that had led to the sustainability of the institution of Ubukhosi which has been under threat for so long.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR M B GWALA:  He, like his illustrious fathers before him, has worked long and hard to preserve and promote the institution of the monarchy to its rightful position in our nation, and that he has created many building blocks to enshrine Zulu culture and history in the annals of our nation. There is also grateful acclaim from areas such as Transkei.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order, please.

MR M B GWALA:  In 1828 the Zulu nation and the African continent was overshadowed by a black cloud, because that is the year when King Shaka died, but 100 years later, in 1928, the sun rose once again because that was the year in which His Excellency, Dr Buthelezi, was born.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M B GWALA:  After Princess Magogo KaDinizulu gave birth to the young boy, he went on to become a new beacon of hope, not only for the Zulu nation, but also for the entire South Africa.  He will live on in the memory of the South African nation throughout his lifetime and forever after.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Gwala.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Now comes a real military strategist.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I now call upon Mr Makhaye, who also has 12 minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Take your tongue out of your cheek.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Speaker, I also rise to thank the Premier for a great speech.

MR V A VOLKER:  To praise Buthelezi.  

MR D H MAKHAYE:  If speeches are really great, they must be great in form, content and essence.  Unfortunately, some speeches are great, not because of this criteria.  They are great, not because of what they say, but because of what they do not say.  Of course, all hitherto philosophers have tried to interpret the world, but the point is to change it.

Our Province, like the rest of South Africa, still has a huge task of effecting the democratic transformation as quick as it is possible.  We still have a task to deracialise the social, economic and cultural lives of our people.

Democratic transformation is both partisan and non-partisan.  It is partisan in the sense that it will, of necessity, favour those whom ~Apartheid~ allocated to the status of being the hewers of wood and the drawers of water.  We need not apologise for this.  It is also non-partisan in the sense that in the long run, it will benefit all South Africans irrespective of colour or creed.  In this sense, it expresses the unity and struggle of the opposites.  Democratic transformation cannot mean the maintenance of the ~Apartheid~ status quo.

The most important tool to achieve this democratic transformation is the budget and how it is used to effect this change.  The point is not so much to complain about insufficient funding.  The point is how do you use the available funds?  How do we account for those funds?  One would expect that our budget must be directed towards those areas that have a direct bearing on the democratic transformation, the bias development of African, Indian and coloured areas, with African areas as the first priority.

This will include the building and staffing of clinics in rural and urban areas, predominantly African areas.  The building and maintenance of community access roads, the promotion and assistance of the small and medium businesses.  The bias building, staffing and provision of resources to predominantly African schools, is more important than provision of cleaning services.  The betterment of the welfare system for the aged and the infirm, and the building of decent houses in African areas.

The question may be that the we have a scarcity of funds.  There must be prioritisation of the more than R17 billion budgeted to this Province.  We need to put in place sound financial systems which will enable us to have effective financial accountability.  The internal audit sections of all departments must be strengthened.  Political heads of departments must look at the financial sections of their departments as the number one priority.

Accounting officers must not be allowed to spend more than their allocated budgets.  Any over-expenditure must be treated or regarded as treason.  Cabinet resolutions must be strictly followed.  If the Cabinet says no filling of vacant posts, it must mean just that.  There are moments when violations of these resolutions and decisions border on sabotage of the responsible Minister and the Government, as a whole.  Perhaps the time has come to link the fate of heads of departments with the fate of political heads.  In short, if the Minister goes, the departmental head must also go.

The very little that was mentioned of the peace process in the Premier's State of the Province speech may be an indication that we are beginning to take the peace process for granted.  We must not under-estimate the tireless efforts of some among us, who spend sleepless nights plotting the undoing of the peace process.  Peace is a danger to their positions in Government, political parties, and social life, which they owe to political violence.  Political violence has not affected them personally or any immediate members of their families.  We must unite in action and act in unity against this scourge of political violence which consumes only Africans lives.  

There is now a dangerous theory, and I hope it does not succeed.  That theory says that political violence persists, precisely because it is discriminatory in its consumption.  The day it begins to consume indiscriminately, this type of violence will die a natural death.  Let us deny this theory by stopping political violence in all communities.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR D H MAKHAYE:  The crime situation continues to be a problem.  Two days ago my own car was stolen, but let us be careful here.  I am not going to cry because I have lost that car.  It could have been lost even in New York, even in London, even in Tanzania.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  So you must just accept it?

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Of course, I do not advance this argument as an apology to crime.  It would be silly to try and say crime started in 1994, or even to say crime increased as from 1994.  Officers in the police service, who are neither members of the ANC or IFP, are saying in fact crime is being reduced.  Of course, there are political parties who think they will benefit out of the increase in crime and hence they will deny those statistics.  It depends on where you stood in the ~Apartheid~ equation.  For those communities who enjoyed maximum security under the ~Apartheid~ crime against humanity, they may be justified to suspect crime is increasing.

For me, who was on the receiving end in the past, I feel much more secure today because I know there are no longer billions of rands put aside for the commission of crimes against the black majority, as was the case in the past.  The presence of police officers in our midst no longer means the killing and maiming of our people.

There have been attacks against tourists, but these attacks remain isolated.  We should not be alarmists and therefore be more of a problem than a solution, when we are faced with such problems.  The comments of the Swedish Consul, after the brutal murder of his two nationals, was more sympathetic to South Africa than the comments of some South Africans.

Farmers continue to be attacked and we condemn that, but there are more criminal acts against black farm workers, but such events are not publicised because black lives are still regarded as cheap.

AN HON MEMBER:  Nonsense.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Regrettably, the majority of the perpetrators of these crimes against farm workers are white farmers themselves.  Perhaps a summit with representatives of the farm workers must be held as soon as it is possible.  Farm workers are the real victims of that crime.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute left for the hon member.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  We have a vibrant multi-party democracy.  We have a constructive, but vibrant opposition at the heart of which, and at the head of which, is the African National Congress.  It is so vibrant that in many cases the ruling party assumes the role of an opposition to itself.  [LAUGHTER]  The behaviour of the ruling party yesterday and today on the Minibus Taxi Bill was so destructive that the IFP has became its greatest enemy.

To conclude, Mr Speaker, the ANC is ready to govern KwaZulu-Natal.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR D H MAKHAYE:  The ANC will govern KwaZulu-Natal.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR D H MAKHAYE:  The ANC will take KwaZulu-Natal into the next millennium.  
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time up.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  The ANC will effect people's power.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up for the hon member.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  The ANC is unstoppable.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order?  Can we have order, please?  I call upon Mr Hamilton.  You have six minutes, sir.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Speaker, let us never forget that this Province is the region of greatest economic opportunity in South Africa and that one of our port cities, Durban, has been identified as South Africa's global competitor of the future by the Centre for Enterprise Development, with two important provisos.

They are that we ensure that the port of Durban is developed with a bold vision to take it well into the next century, and the construction of King Shaka International Airport to fully recognised international standards.

Mr Speaker, I wish to compliment the hon Premier on a very forthright and informative summary on the state of our Province.  Further, to congratulate our Premier on his bold and pro-active style of leadership.  His courageous and determined efforts to achieve important infrastructural projects, such as his unswerving support, together with the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, and the Cabinet, for the construction of our new King Shaka International Airport, which is within our grasp.  For the optimal development of our key engines of growth, our two magnificent ports of Durban and Richards Bay, his highly successful international campaign to raise the profile of KwaZulu-Natal, and his innovative initiatives to combat crime, announced at his recent summit.

Mr Speaker, our Premier is a problem solver and a doer, and thank the Lord for him.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A J HAMILTON:  I want to touch briefly on the budget by pointing out that with approximately a quarter of South Africa's population, and contributing roughly 18% of the GDP, the stark truth of the matter is that we are grossly under-funded.

Mr Speaker, without doubt, the greatest problem facing this Province is the creation of jobs, especially in a contracting economy.  However, there is a great beacon of hope for us in achieving a dramatic break-through in job creation, and that beacon of hope is the tourism industry.  Specifically foreign tourism, which is confidently expected, during the next few years, three or four years, that is, to more than double to 2 500 000 people, creating some additional 400 000 employment opportunities which, will with the multiplier effect, bring food, shelter and hope to about 1 500 000 people.  

However, we have no room for complacency.  None at all.  During the recent years, our share of foreign tourism, as well as national, has been dropping, albeit slowly, but steadily.  Just seven years ago we had substantially more passengers than Cape Town and more international air carriers than Cape Town.  Today, just seven years later, we are still around the 2 200 000 passenger mark, whilst Cape Town has now well in excess of 4 000 000 passengers.  

Seven years ago we had more international carriers than Cape Town.  Today Cape Town has in excess of 25 international air carriers calling there and we have fewer than 12.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR A J HAMILTON:  If this trend continues, Durban, the international gateway to our Province, will become entrenched as a regional destination.  This cannot be allowed to happen.  The construction of King Shaka Airport is vital to our Province if we wish to secure our rightful share of the massive tourism bonanza.  

Mr Speaker, King Shaka Airport is ours for the taking and, of course, it will need brave political and financial commitment to achieve this vital economic development project.

In conclusion, sir, I want to refer to the hon John Aulsebrook's branch mentality theory.  Development and prosperity only come if there is a vision, a belief that we can do in Government, in the private sector, and by the people, everyone of us.  In other words lets develop a "can do" culture.

Mr Speaker, let us take our focus off our boots and let us focus on a vision for the future.  Let us believe in our future and that we can do it.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  You are too good, but somebody is after your post.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Hamilton.  I now call upon the hon Mr Nel.  You have four minutes, sir.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, thank you very much.  Tomorrow we again come to the most important day of the parliamentary calendar, and that is, of course, the budget day and the release to the public of the budget.  As many hon members have pointed out, we have to live within those means.  We will complain again about under-funding, and rightly so.  We will again tell Central Government where they have short-changed this Province in the past and now.  Having said that, we then have to simply live within the means that we have.  

Last year, sir, we opposed the budget, not simply for the sake of opposing, but because we really believe and identified it as an unachievable plan.  We knew at the beginning that we could not pay the teachers' salaries with the money that we had budgeted.  To our mind, that is ridiculous.  

We also believed that it had some misdirected priorities in it such as discretionary funds in the face of a dearth of money, on the one hand, and also, for example, the building of white elephants in the Province when there were other priorities.  We do believe that to be acceptable, our budget tomorrow is going to have to be credible, and if it is, and we trust it will be, we will gladly support it.

In the next month the Portfolio Committees will have to meet to examine the management plans of the respective departments.  We want to warn them in advance that unless they have a plan to convince the Committees that they will stick to their budget allocations, we will simply have to, we have no alternative, but to send them back to the drawing boards.  We trust all of that will be in order.

Sir, I read with interest in the Medium Term Expenditure Frame-work, page 57, that they identified the major problem facing Government as follows.  

	The MTF review of personnel issues concluded that improving the management of personnel is the single most important priority of Government.  It is the key to improving service delivery making the provisions of services more equitable and enabling government to meet its reconstruction and development priorities within a level of spending that can be afforded.  This requires dismantling of over-centralised bureaucratic controls, empowering the managers to manage staff, and providing incentives to keep personnel costs under control.

Sir, we believe that unless we address this in a really innovative and constructive fashion, no budget will deliver to this Province, or anywhere in this country, that which we need to deliver to our people.  

We are very pleased to note that even in the Premier's address, specifically talking about education, he was addressing specifically that issue.  We are tired of hearing that teachers are not in the classrooms, on the one hand perhaps because of a lack of discipline, but on the other hand, because they legitimately cannot solve their administrative problems over the phone or by correspondence and then take themselves off to the departmental regional officer, or to ~Ulundi~ or to Pietermaritzburg, as the case may be.  That has to stop, and it can only be stopped by empowering the administrations of the departments.  In that case education, but I have know of similar problems in other departments.  

For example, somebody complained to me yesterday about the desk for small, micro and medium sized enterprises, and saying that it was simply impossible to get through to that desk, and even when they did, the personnel at the other end either did not know what was going on or, alternatively, became rude and offensive.  We cannot afford that.  Until we get that right, we cannot expect the public to believe that we are serious about governing and serious about looking after the little money that we have.  

That would be our plea and our hope that in the next year we will live within our means according to a credible budget and also manage our personnel to best advantage.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  I now call upon Mr MacKenzie.  You have 10 minutes, sir.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, hon colleagues, and Wessel Nel. I should like to congratulate the Premier on a well thought out speech in very, very difficult times when this Province, as usual, is sucking what is known as the hind tit.

MR R M BURROWS:  It is most unparliamentary.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  To expand on that, I would like to comment on rural security as my first point.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Could I ask for your indulgence, Mr Mackenzie, and from the hon Mr Bhamjee.  I would like to request Mr Bhamjee, as he walks out now, to talk to the members outside the Chamber.  In fact their debate outside of the Chamber is affecting the debate inside the Chamber.  Please, Mr Bhamjee.  You can go ahead, Mr MacKenzie.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Obviously they are really missing some valuable input.  

With regard to rural security, I would like to try and bring to the attention of members here, that this is the most overlooked section of our society.  It is over there, [on the farm] 

It is not seen, it is not noticed, and it suffers, but TV does not go there, nor do reporters.  So therefore there is no problem.  I am suggesting here that it is under-funded, it is lacking in any up-grading, for a variety of reasons.  Rural security is now becoming an extremely important part of our governance programme and plan.

If I were to tell this House that in Msinga, right now, there is more grass than there has been for 50 years, and it is not caused by the wonderful rains we have had, it is caused by the fact that livestock has been stolen to such an extent that it is now under-grazed.  

Now the means to stop this stock theft are not there.  The South African Police Services are not able to handle these big hauliers that move in and load livestock, and have it over the border in Swaziland by morning, or in the abattoirs on the Reef overnight.  The poor people in rural areas, mainly mothers and children, because the men are away either on the mines or elsewhere earning a living, are unable, they are ineffectual with regard to stopping these stock thieves who are armed with AK47s and literally say [you load].

Recently you may have read that we suggested that there be an augmentation of the South African Police Services' role by the appointment of private security firms.  Immediately you say who is going to pay for them?  We have not yet warned the Premier, but we are going to [creep] up to him and say when we start getting this lovely gambling income, we would like to ask for a certain percentage to pay for this.  

MR R M BURROWS:  Raj has spent it all already.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  We need to think very, very carefully about this and the priorities of security, in general, in the rural areas.  

My second point is traditional leaders.  I do not want us to write them off, as has been the case in so-called modern developed countries, simply because they have got a distinctive and extremely important role to play.  They represent a traditional leadership in the form of a reliable and accessible office where you can expect a fair deal that is based on your tribal norms.  The ~Amakhosi~ areas lack roads, they lack ESKOM, they lack telephones, and frequently the means of administering these areas are archaic in the extreme, in that you do not have the clerical support that is required to actually administer a large area.

I therefore was extremely pleased to hear in the Premier's speech that there must be a reprioritisation and that we need to identify exactly what is required in these ~Amakhosi~ areas.  There also needs to be a rationalisation.  We do not want nine or 10 departments all having a dip at it and then in the end not being able to co-ordinate it.  

My next point is environment.  You will all know that we have now had St Lucia up-graded to the point where it is now going to go through to the body, UNESCO, for serious consideration of World Heritage status.  Do you realise what this means?  It does not just mean that we now have a map with a dot round St Lucia that says that St Lucia has now gained World Heritage status.  It means that it moves on to the list of destinations that are required in the world of people who want to see a pristine wilderness, and who will pay, and who will enhance the value of the Province by visiting it.  It will have a spin-off in the whole of the hospitality industry.  

I would like to say that the people who fought for St Lucia, who started fighting for St Lucia against mining, all those years back, are to be congratulated.  

AN HON MEMBER:  The ANC.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  The ANC came in at the end when the fight was over.

There is another sad thing in environment, and here I would like to address my words to our new member, Msizi, over there, Mr Gcabashe, that whilst we understand the need for trade unions, and they are sorely needed where you have got errant employer behaviour with regard to employees, I do not believe that trade unions must exert such an influence that the efficiency of running an environmental form of conservation, like a game reserve, suffers.  That will immediately make those who have to operate within a confined budget think in terms of private enterprise, rather than be dictated to by people saying: [no, we start at 8 o'clock in the morning.  We knock off at 4.00 in the afternoon.  We drink tea at 10 o'clock.  Then we have our dinner at 1.00.  Perhaps there will be some time to do work after that].

My next point is elections 1999.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M M MACKENZIE:  We will not be able to forget, in a hurry, what happened in 1994, and the fear that was rampant in this Province in particular.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There is just one minute left.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Thank you, Baba.  I would like to impress on all of us that we need to be able to go into these elections with a reasonable amount of assurance that we will not get shot at or beaten up or have our houses burned.  

Lastly, I think that we should try and rally behind the Premier in his efforts to root out fraud and corruption.  I have put forward a suggestion that Portfolio Committee Chairpersons, hold themselves accountable, in part, for the upkeep of a good budget.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr MacKenzie.  I now call upon Mr Bartlett.  You have six minutes.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  This was the first State of the Province speech which the hon, the Premier, made and I would like to compliment him on it.  I would also like to tell him, sir, that the National Party believes in the potential and in the future of this Province, KwaZulu-Natal.  As a loyal opposition, I want to pledge our efforts to play a constructive role in ensuring that this Province achieves its full potential.

Having said that, Mr Speaker, I want to say to the hon Premier that it is all very well talking about the great potential of KwaZulu-Natal, and the great challenges facing us.  I would like to put a question to the hon Premier, and his Cabinet colleagues, and ask him just exactly how do we judge the state of the Province?  I am quite sure that many of our colleagues have their own criteria as to how we judge the state of the Province, but I would like to submit a number of basic questions which I believe should be answered before a truly valued and considered judgment can be made on this matter.

1.	What percentage of KwaZulu-Natal's total population can be classified as economically active?

2.	What percentage of this economically active population is actually and factually gainfully employed in the Provincial economy?

3.	Is the annual increase in our gross geographic product exceeding our annual population growth rate?

4.	Is the wealth generating capacity of our Provincial economy able to meet the demands of labour for improved working and living conditions, as well as the increasing level of National, Provincial and Local Government taxes, rates and levies, without these things becoming a disincentive for further investment in the Province.

5.	Is the quality of life and the standard of living of KwaZulu-Natal citizens improving each year?  That is to say, are the number of job opportunities, the living standards, and public services, such as, education, health, welfare, security, recreation, etcetera, improving each year, and is this Province succeeding in these objectives?

Surely, Mr Speaker, these are some of the most basic questions we must have answered here today, as we debate the state of the Province.  I submit that the answers to these questions will show that the Province is not succeeding in this regard.  

There is an old truism, Mr Speaker, which can be applied to politicians and political parties in South Africa.  Here I refer to the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  The old ~Apartheid~ policies of the old National Party of the 1950s were the good intentions that paved the road to hell of the 1960s and 1980s.  We have got to learn from history.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR G S BARTLETT:  Yesterday, and I asked the hon Minister of Economic Affairs, who said he would like to be here today, but he said he had a meeting in Durban, however he evaded the nub of my question that I had placed on the Order Paper as to whether three pieces of ANC legislation in the National Assembly would contribute to job creation and job retention, and he spent most of his time trying to justify the intentions of the legislation.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, I want to reassure the hon Minister and his colleagues that we, in the new National Party benches are unequivocal in our stand that we need good labour relationships backed up by good legislation in the management of our economy.  To achieve this objective there must be a correctly negotiated deal struck between Government, organised labour and business.  
I also wish to reassure the ANC and the Minister that the issue of the security of tenure of so-called labour tenants on farms in KwaZulu-Natal has to be resolved correctly.  So we are ad idem with him, Mr Speaker, and the ANC, on many of these issues and those which the hon Minister raised yesterday.  

I would like to submit to him and his colleagues that there are some basic flaws in parts of this legislation, to which I referred, flaws that will hinder economic growth and frustrate job creation and frustrate wealth creation, and put at risk the long-term prosperity of our country and also of KwaZulu-Natal.  

We totally support the Government's Gear policy.  Growth in the economy.  The greatest liberating force, Mr Speaker, is economic growth.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR G S BARTLETT:  Employment, the retention of jobs and the creation of new jobs, and the redistribution of the new wealth created in South Africa, we support these things.

Mr Speaker, I would like to submit to the ANC that parts of the legislation that I have referred to is putting the cart before the horse.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute left.

MR G S BARTLETT:  There seems to be too much emphasis on the redistribution and not enough emphasis on the economic growth, job creation and job retention aspects of Gear.  

Yesterday, the hon Minister in the last paragraph of his reply insinuated that managers and farmers in this Province view this legislation, and I quote him, "It reflects a critical view of labour", and then he went on to say "This critical view is based on a deep-seated conflictual and adversarial relationship between management and labour".  I must disabuse the hon Minister of any such ideas he might have of such attitudes on the part of the vast majority of managers and farmers in KwaZulu-Natal.

Might I suggest that perhaps it is he and his colleagues, who come from backgrounds of socialism and communism, who have a deep-seated conflictual and adversarial relationship with management and private enterprise.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.  

MR G S BARTLETT:  To conclude, sir, I wish to submit to the hon Minister of Economic Affairs that much of what is contained in this legislation is counter-productive because the generating of wealth in this Province and indeed, in any dynamic and viable.... [Microphone cut off]

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I ask a question from the hon member?  Is it a deliberate defiance of my ruling that the time is up or is it a mistake?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  I did not hear you.  I honestly did not.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I do not think the hon member did not hear me.  

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, I must tell you, sir, there was such a lot of hubbub this side from the ANC that I could hardly hear myself speak.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I make this request again?  Again, like always.  I would like us to run our Legislature as adults and as matured politicians and not to misuse the procedures.  I am not talking to the hon member.  I am just talking to the House.  If the hon member would resume his seat.  I am saying let us just treat our Legislature as adult people and not misuse whatever flexibility comes from the Chair.  I do not think it would be correct if we were to scrupulously stick to the Rules, which we can do, but I do not think we want to do that.  Therefore I think we would also like to feel that we are being respected and we are given the recognition that we deserve.  Nonetheless, I am requesting that no other member, please, goes beyond the time allocated to him.  I think it is now beginning to be practice.  I am now calling upon the Minister of Public Works.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes.

MR G S BARTLETT:  I feel I must address you, sir.  From what you have said, it would appear that you are saying that I did not heed your call to say that my time was up.  I want to assure you that I did not hear that.  I did not hear you call me, sir, because there was such a noise from the ANC on this side of the House that I could not hear it.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR G S BARTLETT:  My colleague did not hear it, sir.  I would like to submit to you that if you wish speakers to hear what you are saying, that perhaps you should call to order those people who are making such a noise in the House, that the person holding the floor cannot hear what the Speaker is saying to him.  I want to repeat, I did not hear you, sir.  I did not ignore your call, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I also want to repeat that I am not talking to the hon member.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am talking to the House.  I also do not think that there should be insinuations that I am addressing individuals.  I clearly said that I am addressing the House.  Every word that I have spoken relates to me addressing every individual.  I do not want it thought that I am addressing individuals.  

On the concern that has been raised, I would like for us to run our Parliament orderly.  I take the point that if there is too much noise, it is not going to be easy for individuals to hear.  Therefore, again, I am not addressing any particular individual or group, I am just saying can the House run its business orderly.  Please can we do that?

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I now call upon the Minister of Public Works.

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, and your hon House, let me take this opportunity to congratulate and applaud the Premier for his speech that was of a very high standard.  It is my belief that this speech has placed our Province in its rightful place.

I want to mention just briefly, the majority of the things have already been said.  Although I will not repeat exactly what was said, I want to talk about the second section on page 9, where the Premier spoke about a certain issue that is very important, which confronts our Province and the whole of our country.  That is crime, safety, protection.

However, I want us to look carefully.  I think that we need to look carefully now at the reasons, or the reason for this situation pertaining to crime, which is now in our land.  This crime which is so very prevalent on a daily basis, so much so that it is difficult to say that law still prevails in this country.

But I say it is not surprising, Mr Speaker, when we see this situation, although we are very thankful and grateful to the Almighty for having mercy on us and hearing our prayers, and our efforts in regard to violence, which was the corner stone and the main thrust for causing crime to rapidly escalate.  I think that the main reason in whichever country which exists under the sun, if the relationship of whatever Government, if the relationship is not good between the Government and God, then evil prevails.  If the Government of the country is such, there is normally no justice, as a result of the wrongfulness that the Creator can see, the One who was before all else.

There are indications that indicate this, that even with us, our Government does not have a good relationship with God.  For that reason, God utters his curse on the land.  These are my reasons, for you might say I am speaking ill.  I am also part of the Government.

But we must look at the fact that when God has given us an opportunity to walk in front of the people, that means something else indeed.  These are my reasons, when the Government makes laws such as these, which are being passed by our Government, such as the laws relating to abortion, the law allowing marriages between people of the same sex (homo-sexuality).  Allowing filth such as prostitution by women, etcetera, etcetera, and the law preventing children from being corrected by corporal punishment at home and at school.  All these things, if the Government is such, that Government does not have a relationship with God.

The big danger is that we sometimes think that we have strength of our own accord, or perhaps we can quieten the country with police, that is a big danger, because it is God who looks to see how the country is governed, and to see how the people, that He has given the right to govern, for that time, He looks to see how they are governing.

So, crime will increase if our multi-party way of governing does not bring true peace in truth.  Arguments which are unnecessary, the spending of money and time, it is like people playing a game.  One is digging, the other one is replacing the sand.  The other one is digging a row, and the other one is replacing the sand behind him.

Now, this type of Government, of putting on your clothes and taking them off.  [LAUGHTER]  Yes, that type of Government is the type of Government that puts on its clothes and takes them off again.  But they say, "Get dressed today", and tomorrow they say, "Take your clothes off".  That is something that you cannot trust.

I think, Mr Speaker, that it is necessary that we should think carefully about this.  We talk about peace, we talk about development.  If you listen to people, all of us are saying that we want peace, when you listen to us talking, but then, eventually, you say, "Awu, this person wants peace, but he is breathing fire".  Cold water and hot water do not emanate from the same tap.

The country will have peace when the Government has peace.  I believe that at this time the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, if the Province had not gone back from the heights which had been planned for it by the KwaZulu Government, in consultation with the businessmen of this country, the structure for going forward had been planted.  These structures were those which met and views were expressed by the Buthelezi Commission.  There were recommendations made by the Buthelezi Commission and the KwaZulu Indaba and the Joint Services Board, but when the ~Apartheid~ Government took over, some of the things were turned around.

However, what is heartening, is that all the political parties in this country of South Africa, although they did not believe in the principles of the IFP, eventually those are the principles that are governing this country.  For those reasons, I have hope that in the end this country will succeed to have peace, and development, because it is holding fast to the principles which are correct.  Those are the principles that will prosper this country, the principles of negotiation.  All things should be negotiated around the table.

That programme, I think, was the start of the structure there, where peace and development and prosperity and wealth can be built on that structure.  Shortly, I said, because I was going to speak about God, I am a person who is a church-goer, perhaps you do not understand what I am saying.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKE [The hon Minister has one minute left].

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works) 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, sir.  You were all given Bibles yesterday.  Then I thought, let me put this clearly, let me put clearly what I am talking about, so that you can read it and not say I was just talking.

From the book of Exodus, chapter 21, verse 22, reads as follows:

		"If men strive and hurt a woman with child so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follows, he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him, and he shall pay as the judges determine."

Isaiah 9, verse 16, reads as follows:

		"For the leaders of this people, cause them to err, and they that are led of them are destroyed."

Leviticus chapter 18, verse 22:

		"Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind.  It is an abomination."

Leviticus 20, verse 13:

		"If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed sin, abomination.  They shall surely be put to death.  Their blood shall be upon them.  It is God who says these things."  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [The hon Minister's time is up.  If the hon Minister had defied me, I would have left it.  Now, you have asked my permission, so it will not happen].

I now call upon the hon member, Mr Gcabashe, and you have 13 minutes, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

AN HON MEMBER:  Maiden speech.

MR S J GCABASHE:  

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity that I have been given today so that I am able to reply to the Premier's speech.  Firstly, I would want to say, I am grateful to hear that this was the Premier's first speech that he has given here today, as the Premier.  Perhaps it was because he was waiting for me to arrive.  [LAUGHTER]

So, I am grateful because I have been able to work hard, together with him before.  We were together in Cape Town in the Parliament and we were able to work together in this Province, together with him and others.  Others that were not here at that time, are now here.

In the Premier's speech, which he has given, there are a few things which I decided to note.  I will try to speak regarding them, but I want to start and direct my attention towards the National Party.  I want to say to it, I want to remind you, just a small thing.  Father Ntombela on the opposite side knows that grandfather used to tell us - that is his father - used to tell us - yes, his grandfather, that is the way we can put it - he used to tell us how they were made to suffer by the Boers on the farms.  How they were made to suffer under the yoke of ~Apartheid~, chased for their passes.

Then some of them, or their children, were using their wives, that is the National Party, together with the DP, they used to sleep with their wives in their houses and say that our fathers and mothers should not visit each other.  We were also not allowed to visit them.  So these laws that are now present, these Bills that we are talking about, that you keep saying no, nonsense, they are trying to address those things, the very thing that we must all be the same.  We must all have dignity as human beings.

Sorry, but sorry will not bring that day back, the day on which you did those things.  Now you say those days are gone, sorry, gone are those days.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

MR S J GCABASHE:  Read the Bills carefully.  They are trying to level the playing field so that they should be on par, employer and employees.  It is something that has been accepted by the international community.  Read them, identify where problems are, but you cannot regard those Bills as nonsense, otherwise you are insane.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR S J GCABASHE:  After being sentenced to life imprisonment on 20 April 1964, Nelson Mandela stood in the dock and told the court:

	Our fight is against real, and not imaginary hardships, or, to use the language of the State Prosecutor of that day "so-called hardships".  We fight against two features which are hallmarks of African life in South Africa, and which are entrenched by legislation which we seek to have repealed.  These features are poverty and lack of human dignity.  

I rise to respond to the speech by the Premier, saddened by the events which followed his speech.  In the year 1998, four years after the democratic elections, I pose a question.  Has taking office after a democratic election brought us any nearer to overcoming poverty and giving dignity to particularly our African South Africans?   Do we have the tools to achieve these noble goals through passing legislation which will reduce violence and bring peace, democracy and development to our troubled Province?

KwaZulu-Natal is not only the largest province in our country, but is also the Province which suffered the greatest under the twin yoke of colonialism and ~Apartheid~.  Simply because it had the largest concentration of particularly Africans, but also Indians.  Successive governments used every tool at their disposal to inhibit peace, democracy and development. Through legislative means and the restriction of resources, the Province was under-developed.  Problems must urge our collective wills to come together to find solutions.  It is three specific problems which urge the solutions that I wish to address myself.  

Firstly, is the question of bringing peace to our Province.  Whether it disguises itself as political or criminal, our energies must be focused on eliminating this problem.  We must commit ourselves to speeding up the peace process and conclude an agreement which binds us and eliminates the causes of political violence.

At the same time, everything must be done to ensure that criminal justice and policing structures of the Province are encouraged to do their work effectively, efficiently and without fear or favour.  Supporting the line functions of the Minister of Safety and Security must be a commitment made by all of us, and we must allow them to do their work without any political intervention or withholding of information.

Secondly is the question of transformation in the spheres of Provincial government to become a servant of the people.  This necessarily involves good governance, but it also involves deracialising the management structures of our Province.

Good governance must be properly contextualised.  These programmes are not about bringing discipline to the public service alone, but about bringing transformation to the public service, to make sure that it becomes partners in development in the service of the people of our Province and the country as a whole.  If public servants realise that every cent that is wasted is a cent less for them, less for their families, less for the beneficiaries of our programmes, then we will go a long way to effectively implementing our goals of good governance.

What this means is that our indicators of good governance must not only be one that promotes efficiency, but also how such governance impacts on the lives of the people.  Are we able to bring a better life to the people of our Province?  Are we able to project this Government throughout the Province?  Are we promptly discharging our responsibilities?  How do we interact with the organs of civil society?  We must promote participative as well as representative democracy.  

Transformation is certainly about creating a representative Government, whether it is elected officials or public servants.  As a Province we must commit ourselves to concrete programmes of deracialising our Provincial Government whilst at the same time creating conditions for non-racialism.  I would like to emphasise this point because at present what we see happening within the different government departments, especially Safety and Security, as well as the Department of Education, that whatever promotions that are being brought into those departments, whether it is transfers, whether it is redistribution of resources it has caused a lot of tension among those communities of different races.

Transformation is about redressing the under-development of the past.  Whilst we achieved some successes in fighting for a fair share of the national resources we have a long way to go to fight for effective redistribution of resources, in order to redress the historical and racist inequalities.

Thirdly, our project is about bringing delivery to our people.  The reprioritisation of budgets is necessary.  It is necessary and it is a consequence of a democratic government.  Whether it is addressing the causes of nine children that died while they were crossing the swollen river, or ensuring resources are equitably spread throughout the Province, we must ensure that we do not simply adopt a strategy of knee-jerking reactions to those who are shouting the loudest.  Our programme to reprioritise must be unequivocal and supported by all.  Africans, in particular, and blacks, in general, must be the major beneficiaries of our delivery.

In this regard, when dealing with the very difficult issues facing us in the transformation of education, we must all agree that the resources we have must be equitably distributed to focus on the poorest.

Reducing poverty and giving particularly the blacks their human dignity, must be the yardstick against which we measure our political project of peace, transformation and delivery.  This project is not one in which there can be petty party political point scoring, but it is a collective project in which we must all give it space to take place.

Finally, I would like to call upon the Premier.  There are under-utilised resources in our Province.  When you drive around the Province you sometimes see government buildings that are under-utilised, while at the same time government departments are using buildings that are being rented.  When you go to the rural areas, where we come from, you will find vast lands that are under-utilised, and we hope that as the Premier has said in his speech, rural development is one of the priorities that have been put in place.  

We must also take into consideration that African people are people who are able to resist difficult conditions.  We were evicted and deployed in very remote areas, where other people cannot live, but we survived.  Those hardships that we went through, today we must say are the strengths on which we can build to make sure that development is taking place in those areas.

I am not against the spatial development projects, SDIs, and all that.  I have a fear that if we concentrate all our energies on those areas, again we are going to create a situation where people will further move from their residential areas to those places where the work will be concentrated, again leaving their own areas.  Then there will be demands for housing and other things.  

I think that at this point in time I will support the call by some members of the IFP, who are saying that let us go back and discuss the issue of what role can be played by our elected councillors, together with the traditional leaders in those areas, to make sure that at the end of the day everybody benefits.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR S J GCABASHE:  Yes, wait.  We should accept again that we all have a role to play.  So we should also allow, ima Ntombela, Izinduna and ~Amakhosi~ and their subjects to make their inputs. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Less than 30 seconds.

MR S J GCABASHE:  The problem in the past is that now ~Amakhosi~ really 
So if we are able to sit down and to discuss [Is that the ~Amakhosi~ themselves, really, they did not allow people to put their own point of view.  So, if we are able to sit down and discuss these things in truth, it means we will get to where we are supposed to be].

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.

MR S J GCABASHE:  Yes. [It is possible that some of you, yes, it is possible that some of you did it, but that some of you did not do it.  Thank you].

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up for the hon member.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon members have now concluded their debate.  It is now time for the Premier to respond to the debate, please.  Mr Premier.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the members for the depth they brought into this debate.  I would like to congratulate Mr Gcabashe and Mr Matthee on their maiden speeches.  They have contributed significantly on their first day, to this debate.

A lot of very good things have been said here today.  In fact I am very heartened that not a single speaker has told me I was talking nonsense.  [LAUGHTER]  

AN HON MEMBER:  But Bartlett has almost said it.  [LAUGHTER]

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Bartlett had the wrong speech.

THE PREMIER:  Without mentioning the peace process, as such, and the achievements that have been made in the Province so far, I implied that, by calling upon us to put the interests of this Province foremost.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  I believe that is the spirit in which we have debated the State of the Province today.  There are many, many problems, but I think we cannot look at the total horizon and say we will cover everything.  Let us decide what we will cover.  The hon House has agreed that we need to re-prioritise.  

This economy will not grow to its fullest potential if a major part of it is under-developed, and this is a fact.  Our rural areas comprise a fair portion of potential growth, but there are no resources that are being addressed or directed to them in a positive and well-planned spatially-related development.  The Miller document does attempt this, but nevertheless, until we bring the resources that are required into those rural areas, the people will not, by a miracle, wake up one morning and be able to plant productively, to have surpluses which they can sell.

The schools they cannot miraculously be able to use modern technology, up-to-date teaching methods, if they do not have telecommunications and electricity.  People will not live a longer life, a healthier life, and the children will not stop dying before they reach the age of one, and many of them before they reach the age of five years, unless we have clean water.  

These are the basics.  So when I was asked as to how many of our population is economically active, how many of them are gainfully employed, what strategies, important as those issues are, but there are certain fundamental issues in this Province that have not yet been attended to.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  We have a first-world type of economy, on the one hand, with excellent financial services, infrastructure and technology, management methods, and then you just move away from the perimeter of greater Durban, or greater Pietermaritzburg, or greater Richards Bay/Empangeni, and you find a completely different world.  That, to me, is the challenge that faces this Parliament.  To be able to transform that backwater of third-world under-development in a fairly short period of time, through excellent management skills and planning and strategies, is within our grasp if we, as the Legislature, direct ourselves and focus on those core issues.

Mr Speaker, we have, as a Legislature, I watched this last year, done a lot of good work in Portfolio Committees, in study groups, but I do not think we have focused, as we should focus, in our relationships with the government departments.  I know the Public Accounts Committee has tried to call in heads of department to be accountable.  I know that Finance has looked at the budget in terms of the Finance Department, but I do not think the rest of the Portfolio Committees have taken their departmental budgets and sat down every month to say to the heads of departments what is your expenditure today, what is the expenditure pattern that we are expecting, what cash-flows are going to be coming through, how are you relating your expenditure to what you have.  I do not think that exercise has taken place.  This is why we only woke up after July, last year, to the huge over-expenditures that were happening in our departments.

So I would request our Portfolio Committees to support the Executive by also being part of expenditure control, being part of the accountability process and the reporting process.

I also expect a reprioritisation strategy to be discussed in the Portfolio Committees.  We cannot do this exercise as an Executive alone.  We do not have the money to hire Ernst and Young, all these other very capable accounting firms, to help us with re-prioritisation because it is too huge an exercise, but if each Portfolio Committee grapples with this issue, together with the administration in the departments, and pose real questions.  

I mean we are going to vote here tomorrow on the budget.  It will still be those line items, livestock, this and that, right through the budget.  One does not even start to question whether those monies are based on outcomes or are they just monies that have to be spent because there are traditional activities on which money has been spent in the past and therefore will continue to spend on them.  Come the end of the year, somebody in the Department realises there is extra money, R5m, and then you go and buy a whole lot of new computers, and all sorts of other things.

We have to shift from this mental mind-set in terms of expenditure and really go to fund outcomes rather than simply spending the budget on what we are used to spending.  That, to me, is the challenge that faces us as a Legislature.  It is a challenge which says, what are the real priorities?  Even if we have five priorities, which is education, health, welfare, and then we talk about community access roads, and then we talk about housing, even if those were the only priorities that we had to work to, I think we will, at the end, come out with much better gains than we would have if we followed the old ways, the historical budgeting processes.

It is a challenge which I hope we will address as we work together during the course of the year, to turn around, not just the question of shifting at the periphery, but fundamentally to turn around the purpose and the function of Government, and therefore devise a multi-tier expenditure frame-work that is really attuned to a new style of delivering services to the majority that requires those services.

I hope that we will develop a stronger partnership, faith and trust in one another.  I hope that we will handle things like it happened this morning in the debate, in an adult and constructive manner.  Let the goodwill that has grown in this Province not be destroyed, not be put at risk.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE PREMIER:  It will be too costly for any one of us to try and do that.  I think the people in the Province will judge such people very harshly.  I thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  The debate on the Premier's opening speech is now finalised.  I will now move on to 8.2 on the Order Paper which is a matter that was supposed to have been discussed, but was referred to the Portfolio Committee.  I have here a list of speakers to speak on the report of the Portfolio Committee as the matter was referred to them.

First to speak on this matter is Mr Motala for five minutes.

8.2	KWAZULU-NATAL INTERIM MINIBUS TAXI BILL.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  NOT ON RECORD.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That was the mover.  The next to speak on this issue is Mr Ainslie for three minutes.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House move that the report presented by the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee be rejected.  We accept that the Bill has been properly tabled before the House.  That we move and discuss the Bill.  We debate the Bill.  We vote on the Bill today, we pass it today, and we implement it today.  Because no time can be lost with the implementation of this Bill.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR A R AINSLIE:  The Bill is an urgent emergency measure to stop violence in the taxi industry.  Without this Bill the Minister's hands are tied.  Without this Bill the violence will continue.  Without this Bill, I fear that the confidence that has been built up in the taxi industry that has given rise to this Bill is going to be severely undermined.

One of the reasons presented in this report for the Bill not to be tabled is that there has been a lack of public participation.  However, the Bill has gone through an exhaustive public participation process.  The members of the Committee from the IFP and the National Party are aware of the extent to which this Bill has been presented to the public, and public participation has been obtained.  Mr Nel is aware of it.  Mr Volker was part of the proceedings.  Mr Mthiyane is aware of the extent to which we have gone to ensure that the public has participated in formulating this Bill.

Mr Speaker, if members look at the addenda, which have been handed out with the memorandum relating to this Bill, you will see that 10 organisations with intimate knowledge of the taxi industry were consulted, including the KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Task Team.  The Pinetown Protection Services were consulted.  The Durban City Police were consulted.  Also via the Taxi Task Team a further 50 individuals with intimate knowledge of the industry as it operates on the ground have been involved in this process.

Mr Mthiyane has raised the question of taxi associations being involved in the process.  If you look at the report that has been handed out, over 20 taxis associations have been involved in this process.  Taxi associations from Kokstad to Mtubatuba, from Umlazi to Melmoth, from Chesterville to ~Ulundi~.  If the hon member wants any more taxi associations to be consulted, he will have to go and look for them in Timbuktu because there are no more left in this Province to consult.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, the Durban Metro Council has been consulted, and 12 local councils have been consulted.  Councils from Port Shepstone to Pongola, from Ladysmith to Amanzimtoti.  What more do members want us to do?  What more do members want the Minister and the Department to do?

Mr Speaker, regional councils have been consulted.  The Ugu Regional Council has been consulted.  The Mzinyathi Regional Council has been consulted.  The claim that there has been insufficient participation by members of the public is basically flawed and we reject that claim.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A R AINSLIE:  The entire process has been overseen by the Portfolio Committee.  On 10 November, last year, this Bill went before the Portfolio Committee.  That is four months, for members to report to their caucuses, for members to make amendments, for members to make suggestions regarding the process, for members to make suggestions regarding further public participation.  But, no, that time has been wasted.  We now come on the eve of the passing of this Bill for these objections to be raised, some of them for the very first time.

The Committee saw the Bill again on 27 February when we were workshopped through the Bill by the consultants and members of the Department.  There was another occasion for Mr Volker, in particular, for Mr Waugh, in particular, for Mr Mthiyane, in particular, to raise their objections.

AN HON MEMBER:  What did we do?

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, I will finish off.  As I say, these objections are without foundation.  They are irresponsible and are going to cost lives.  We urge this House to reconsider this and pass the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Can the member take a question?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The question from the hon member.  The hon member is being asked whether he will take a question.

MR A R AINSLIE:  During Mr Mthiyane's speaking time possibly, yes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  INTERJECTION

MR A R AINSLIE:  I will take his question.  Yes, what does he want to know, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Will the hon member take a question?

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, I will take his question.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  He will take your question.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  I would like to ask the hon member where and when and how were we present when the hearing took place?  Where, when, how, if he says I am aware of any public hearing, because we are not talking about the Bafana Bafana here.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M J MTHIYANE:  We are talking about the business here.  The taxis are a business.

AN HON MEMBER:  Especially for the ANC.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, Mr Mthiyane was part of the process and part of the decision in the Portfolio Committee, when we decided that we would not have public hearings, that we would leave that to facilitate for us to the departments and consultants.

AN HON MEMBER:  Now you are talking rubbish.

MR A R AINSLIE:  He was aware of the process.

AN HON MEMBER:  Errant nonsense.

MR A R AINSLIE:  He was aware of the process.  So was Mr Volker.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is nonsense.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I now request Mr Waugh.  You have five minutes, sir.

MR J C N WAUGH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  If one looks at the report from the Portfolio Committee, you will realise that we did not deal specifically with the two issues as we were requested.

In the first instance let me deal with the two issues that are on the  table.  The one is whether the KwaZulu-Natal Interim Minibus Taxi Bill is properly before the House.  This Bill did come properly before the House, but it is the right of any member to ask that a Bill be referred back to a Committee.  That is what has happened, and that is why that was referred back to the Committee.

However, the next point, whether the Committee is satisfied that the Bill be proceeded with?   We did not deal with that issue.  I want to emphatically say we are not satisfied that we proceed with this Bill.  

AN HON MEMBER:  But you were satisfied on Monday.

MR J C N WAUGH:  I was satisfied on Monday.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J C N WAUGH:  Can I just remind this hon colleague why?  Because on Monday we had brought changes to this Bill, something like seven or eight changes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Three.

MR J C N WAUGH:  Yesterday when this Bill came on the table the changes were not there.  Mr Speaker, let me refer you to the Rules, and I want to ask the hon Mr Motala to look at the Rule.  Rule 124 says:

	The Committee, to which a Bill and a memorandum on its objects has been referred, shall, together with its report, present to this House a Bill that has been agreed to by it.

In other words, that Bill should be on this table to which we agreed.  It was not so.  
AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J C N WAUGH:  Absolutely.  After I had raised this issue, the Chairperson, the hon Mr Motala, came to me and he indicated to me that I am incorrect.  His report deals with the changes.  Mr Speaker, the National Party cannot accept a Bill on this table that is not the right Bill even if the hon member, the Chairperson of the Committee's report will deal with it afterwards.  We cannot accept it if it is dealt with afterwards.

I mentioned yesterday let the Committee meet and let us deal with these issues, then one can look at it again, but, Mr Speaker, that did not happen and now we are in a situation where this Bill has now created a problem.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J C N WAUGH:  Let me now deal with the motion which was proposed at the Committee meeting.  Before I deal with that, I would just like to take the opportunity to mention that the four, five, six changes that were put on the table were put on the table, some of them, by the Democratic Party.  When it was requested that this Bill be referred back to the Committee, the Democratic Party did not ask for that.  They supported that it not be referred back to the Committee.  They put changes to the Bill and could not care less about the changes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J C N WAUGH:  I do not know.   Let me come to the proposal.  The hon Mr Mthiyane put a proposal on the table when we met at lunch time.  That is that the Committee resolve that the Bill is properly before the House, but there has been insufficient consultation and involvement with the public.  I want to say to that hon member, welcome, because on Monday I had already mentioned that in the Committee.  The hon member there said I did not, that I had accepted it.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute left, for the hon member.

AN HON MEMBER:  You accepted it.

MR J C N WAUGH:  He will recall that I, at that stage, said I was concerned that there was not enough consultation, but let me tell you why, my time is running out.  According to the document I have, only 14 organisations, 24 government representations, and 23 members from the taxi industry had contributed to this Bill.  That is according to this document.  No individuals.  He just now mentioned individuals.  According to this document, which we received on Monday, no individuals.  I, on Monday, said that it was a poor or a sorry day that individuals that are in the taxi industry were not consulted on this issue.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

MR J C N WAUGH:  That is my major concern, and that is why I today support that this Bill go back to the role players and that this Bill then be also put to the public for scrutiny by individuals.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Burrows, you have three minutes, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order?  Order, order, please.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, may I just react to the bluster that Mr Waugh has just given the House.  He knows that I had a conversation yesterday with the Secretary of the Department of Transport, who reported that the amendments his party and my party had introduced into the legislation were prepared, they were ready, they were in the new legislation, and the document was ready for distribution as soon as the debate was laid down.  I told him that.  I told him that not once, but on three occasions.  So why he is misleading the House, I do not know.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR R M BURROWS:  The second point I want to make, sir, is that we have before us a report of the Committee and whether the report should be accepted or not.  I indicated in the Committee itself, that the Speaker was satisfied in terms of Rule 121(b) by the member who introduced the Bill, the hon, the Minister of Transport, that the Bill is of an urgent nature, it is an urgent measure, and that its delay or publication may result in prejudice to the general public.

Quite frankly, sir, if the Speaker has accepted that certification, then if the House is going to accept a motion which purports to include advertising, public hearings and possible amendments to the Bill, then, with respect, sir, it is rejecting what the Speaker has accepted.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

MR R M BURROWS:  Then what it is doing, it is saying that it will invite all interested persons and institutions to submit written representations on the Bill to the Portfolio Committee.  It shall specify a date by which such representations are to be received by the Portfolio Committee, which date shall not be less than three weeks after the date it has been published, because it has never been published.  

Quite honestly, what we need to do is confront the fact that if we are going as a House to reject the Speaker's acceptance of a certificate, then we must say that we are going to do it.  We must not just try and get around it, and that is what this report is trying to do.  It is trying to get behind the Speaker and say, yes, we accept your acceptance of the certificate, but we want to do it anyway.  Quite frankly, let us say the House rejects the Speaker's acceptance of the certificate of the Minister and leave it at that.  We reject this report, sir.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  ACDP.  Mrs Downs, you have got two minutes, please.

AN HON MEMBER:  God bless all Christians who go on the rampage.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order?  Can we have order, please?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  When the House wants Mrs Downs to talk they will tell me.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Integrity will speak.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I would just like to say that I have not.....

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  They told you, Mrs Downs, they want you to talk now.

MRS J M DOWNS:  They have told me they want me to talk, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, proceed.

MRS J M DOWNS:  They said let integrity speak, Mr Speaker.  So I took that that they wanted me to speak.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Pride cometh before a fall.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I have not sat on the Transport Portfolio Committee so I am not conversant, and I saw the Bill myself for the very first time yesterday.

AN HON MEMBER:  Then sit down.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I just have one concern.  The taxi industry arose out of a great entrepreneurial spirit amongst individuals, and when I read the Bill I have a concern that individuals are not adequately represented in the Bill.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS J M DOWNS:  There is a situation here where individuals may not have been properly consulted.   Nevertheless, Mr Speaker, I do not feel that I am qualified to debate this particular aspect.  I am going to abstain on this motion.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order again and allow Mr Mkhwanazi to say his say?  Mr Mkhwanazi.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: 
TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, sir, people that are educated are tiresome and people that talk politics are tiresome, especially people who talk politics when it is not appropriate.  I find myself with a problem in regard to this fact that we all agreed on the Bill.  T/E

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  It is important to have this Act, and we all agreed yesterday that it was important to have this Act sooner than yesterday.  There is the problem of the procedures that have not been followed.  It had appeared that the procedures had been followed because at the beginning I also did not attend that Portfolio Committee, but it was agreed that it should be brought.  However, later when our colleagues in the IFP went back the other members of the caucus rejected it.  

What I thought should have been done, instead of whipping up emotions, was what hon Mr Rajbansi suggested yesterday.  It is clear that there is no agreement on this.  We can use the votes, that is the evil of democracy.  People can say here in KwaZulu-Natal the IFP uses its majority.  At the same time the people in Cape Town also use their majority.  So that is not an issue.

What is worrying to me is that both the ANC and the IFP speakers are talking about, if we take this there will be violence.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can the hon member wind up, please.  You had two minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  If we do not do this there will be violence.  We do not want to go back to violence.  Can we go back and talk about this and come back so that we can adopt this Bill and go on to correct the situation that exists?  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mkhwanazi.  Mr Rajbansi, you have two minutes, sir.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  This House has a legal dilemma.  Let us assume by a majority vote the report of the Committee is accepted, but the Committee has decided to do certain things when the Bill is recommitted to the Committee.  Today this Bill is the property of the Legislature, and a Speaker of this Parliament has granted a certificate.  Are we going to bring the Office of the Speaker into disrepute?

HON MEMBERS:  No!  No!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Are we going to do it by use of a majority vote?  Let the words of the hon Premier, at the conclusion of the last debate, reverberate throughout this House so that everyone can hear it.  We must never never use a majority to overrule the decision of a Speaker.  Earlier on the Speaker took a decision, but the Speaker himself reviewed his decision.  I suggested a way out the other day.  The hon Chief Whip of the majority party could have gone to the office of the Speaker and said, could you please review your decision and amend your certificate.  Please never use a majority vote to do a wrong because we are talking of values.

I want to ask you to rule, Mr Speaker, that on the one hand we can accept this report by a majority vote, but then what do we do with the Bill?  We cannot recommit it back to the Committee because you need a motion, and we have not got another motion.  Somebody has to move a motion and Rule 104 is not used for recommittal.  I have not got time to read the Rule but I can give an interpretation.  The only person who can stand up here and propose a recommittal of the Bill to a Committee is the member of the Executive Committee who has introduced it.  

Please, I want to make an appeal.  Do not use a majority to bring the Office of the Speaker into disrepute.  I have suggested a way out.  Yesterday I met two important IFP members from the taxi industry who had a long chat with me, and they are disgusted with what has happened. Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

AN HON MEMBER:  They were here.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I now call upon Minister Ndebele.  Minister Ndebele you have eight minutes.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I was worried that the Premier would not be here when we discuss this.  I hope the hon Mr Gwala will let him be attentive.

Mr Speaker, perhaps it would be important to enlighten this House that this is an emergency Bill.  This is the fourth province in which a Bill like this has been tabled.  The first one was in the Western Cape, last year, that had to deal with the violence that all of us were seeing on TV, in that Province.  The MEC responsible for transport brought it to the House within a week.  There was political will in that Legislature to deal with it and they dealt with it.  We have not heard of that violence since.  
AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Then there was the violence late last year that all of us saw on TV in Soshanguve, Mabopane, Winterveld, Pretoria.  It affected two provinces.  The army and the police were brought in, but they needed to give the Ministers of Transport in those provinces teeth to be able to deal with it, not just negotiate and then those negotiations are not worth the paper they are written on.

The Gauteng Legislature was convened within six days.  North West Province was convened within five days.  They passed that legislation, the emergency Bill, to deal with that.  We have not heard of the type of wild-west acts that were happening in Soshanguve late last year.

What is the difference here?  There was political will to deal with the taxi violence.  I am sorry, Mr Speaker, I am sorry, Mr Premier, there is no political will in this House to deal with the political violence.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  The Cabinet has unanimously, three times, agreed that this must go ahead, twice yesterday.  The Portfolio Committee agreed on Monday and yesterday that this must go ahead.  The Speaker also agreed that this must go ahead.  

Yesterday, at half past one, the Premier left with members of his Cabinet to go and face a very hostile caucus.  They said let us hold hands as if to face vultures.  Let us go and face them now that we have the facts.  There is no political will to deal with the taxi violence.  In spite of the fact that, the Premier, in this Province when the taxi industry came to approach some in the ANC and said, we are not getting a taxi rank here because the ANC is controlled by the IFP, and others came to the IFP and said, we are not getting a taxi rank because it is controlled by the ANC.  The last Premier, and this Premier, said forget it, we are not going to allow ourselves, particularly as an ANC and IFP, to be used by the taxi industry, one against the other.  

The Premier assigned Minister Mtetwa to work with me, and we worked at the Durban station.  At one time while we were there an R-1 went off because they did not want to meet, and we said we are going to meet.  Whether you shoot right at the C R Swart or not, we are going to meet.  We have nursed that situation and it is an outcome of two years of painstaking negotiations by particularly the ANC and IFP.  Other parties came into it as well.  The police came into it.  The local authority came into it, but particularly the ANC and IFP, painstaking negotiations.

This decision undermines that process and is a slap in the face of the taxi industries that were here yesterday.  More than that, the urgency of the Bill.  We have been able to hold back the actions of people who are ready to take up arms.  At Ixopo and Bulwer we told them, hold on, there is a Bill that is coming through.  You will no longer have people from Bulwer coming into Ixopo by force because we are going to confiscate through this Bill, we will confiscate any taxi that goes on a route that does not belong to it.  

At Empangeni Rank B, Durban station, Inanda, Maritzburg and Hammarsdale, the Pavilion, all these areas are areas that we have been saying hold on, there is a Bill that is coming through.  Any taxi that comes here that does not belong here, because up to now it has belonged to who has got the fastest gun.  Through this Bill we say we are going to confiscate your taxi.  You are not going to get it.  

I do not have that ability any more.  It has been taken away.  It is being taken away from us because someone is playing political games.  It is the blood of our people that we are talking about.  It is the blood of our people that we are gambling with.  It is the black people, it is the African people that we are gambling with.  

I do not know, Mr Premier, who is going to answer.  Who is going to go to those people and say, hold on, yet some more.  Not enough African people have died.  Can you give one more month for more to die, then this House can do what Gauteng, the Western Cape and the North West did?  I do not know whose responsibility it is going to be.  I will not face those people and say, hold on again, I have failed.  There are so many failing here.  Talking to a Premier who agreed with me, to a Cabinet who agreed with me, but could not face that House that was ready to see more blood being spilt.  

Mr Speaker, it is the blood of our people we are talking about.  It is an emergency Bill.  In August we will have the Bill that will take over from this one, that people can then debate.  I am defeated here, I am going to be asking for an emergency sitting of this House after 21 days.  It does not matter what it costs.  Perhaps three or five people, perhaps I will be dead myself, but whoever comes after this must continue with this thing.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

AN HON MEMBER:  That is what they want.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I now call upon Mr Tarr to round this up.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I want to try and be fairly brief because this is a Bill and a matter which has raised a lot of temperatures in this House.

First of all, Mr Speaker, we in the IFP agree with the Minister.  We want to see some regulation of the taxi industry.  We are also appalled with the violence and the problems which currently exist.  However, to actually say that not passing this Bill today, and we get on to the 21 days soon, is going to lead to increased violence.  That is a subjective statement.  It may be true, it may not be true.  There are other people who are actually saying if we pass this Bill today, it could in fact, by passing it, lead to increased violence.  I will tell members exactly why I say that.

This side of the House have become aware of significant interest groups involved in the taxi industry who feel they have not been adequately consulted.  What are they going to do when they suddenly see a Bill out there where they have never had an opportunity to be consulted.  They did not even know the Bill was coming.

What we ask you, Mr Speaker, is that we simply publish this Bill for comment.  I understand now it is being published now on Thursday, and the proof of the pudding is going to be in the eating.  I think members on that side of the House will be very surprised at the number of additional representations that are made to the Committee.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and we can have this debate again in three weeks time.

Mr Speaker, there are two other matters which I really cannot leave here.  The one relates to the question of the Speaker's ruling.  These are two different issues.  The ruling of Mr Speaker was such that it enabled this matter to come before the House, but nobody, nobody on that side of the House will ever tell me or persuade me that the House is not master of its own destiny.  Once we have an Order Paper in front of us the House can deal with that Order Paper as it sees fit.  That is not, as the hon Mr Rajbansi pointed out, a reflection on our Speaker.  

MR A RAJBANSI:  I disagree with you and I have got a legal mind.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  You may disagree with me.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Our Speaker, on a basis of the information he had before him at the time made a decision which brought the Bill to this House.  Additional information has been forthcoming so we chose to deal with this matter as we have now dealt with it.  It is in no way a reflection on our Speaker whatsoever.  

Mr Speaker, with those few very brief words, I cannot commit anybody in this Cabinet or this side of the House, but I am absolutely sure that if this Bill is published, and the publication is in three weeks time, one or two days after that where the Minister said he will be asking for an emergency sitting to deal with this Bill, I have got no doubt whatsoever that the Cabinet and this side of the House will be in agreement with such a suggestion.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, this side of the House moves the acceptance of the report as it has been tabled.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The debate has been concluded on the report of the Portfolio Committee.  I will now proceed to put the question as to the acceptance or rejection of this report of the Committee and its recommendation.  

RECOMMENDATION IN THE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE REPORT ON THE KWAZULU-NATAL INTERIM MINIBUS TAXI BILL - ACCEPTED

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, in terms of Rule 88 the ANC would call for a division.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Ngidi.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would support the Chief Whip of the ANC in calling for the division.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, I would like to support that call for a division.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  In terms of the Rules we already have four members who support the call for a division.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

AN HON MEMBER:  Ring the bell.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will therefore request the clerks at the table to proceed in terms of the procedure.  In terms of the procedure we will have the bells ringing for three minutes.

BELLS RUNG FOR THREE MINUTES

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I request your attention, please?  What we are going to do now is we are going to proceed in accordance with certain provisions of our Rules.  One of the provisions of our Rules, that is Rule 91, informs us to ensure that the seating arrangement after the doors are closed, and I hope that the Sergeant-at-Arms has closed the doors and everybody else has closed the doors, that we determine where the ayes will sit and the nays will sit.  We are therefore going to determine that the ayes will sit on this side and the nays will sit on this side.  Yes, ma'am.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I had signified that I was going to abstain.  There is a provision for an abstention.  I stayed in the House.  I would like your direction as to where you would like me to be.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Outside.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  What we will do is we will take your word of abstention and we will record it in terms of the Rules.  We will do that.  

We have now concluded our exercise and in terms of the counting that we have received there is one abstention, which is a vote, and we also then in terms of the ayes and the nays, declare that the ayes have it.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

ON DIVISION THE RECOMMENDATION IN THE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE REPORT ON THE KWAZULU-NATAL INTERIM MINIBUS TAXI BILL - ACCEPTED

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, in terms of the Rules, I believe it indicates that the actual figures must be given.  They must be given in the Minutes as well.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It does not say so.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order, please?  Can we have order, please?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order?  The doors cannot be unlocked and no member will go out.  

We have one abstention.  We then have 21 nays and we have 40 ayes.  That is why we say the ayes have it.  Thank you, that concludes the exercise and it concludes the debate on the report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport.  Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, may we just make sure that the tellers have recorded the names because it is important that the names should actually be recorded for posterity, of those who voted for and against.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We have now concluded item 8.2 which was outstanding.  We now have items 8.6 and 8.7.  I have been handed a resolution which, in my opinion, brings together both items 8.6 and 8.7.  I therefore will allow the Minister of Local Government and Housing, Mr Miller, to table the resolutions.

8.6	RESOLUTION ON APPOINTMENT OF DEVELOPMENT TRIBUNAL

8.7	RESOLUTION ON APPOINTMENT OF DEVELOPMENT APPEAL TRIBUNAL

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  I thank you also for a ruling that we can handle 8.6 and 8.7 simultaneously.  

Mr Speaker, as I have previously explained to members of the Portfolio Committee, and to many other members of this House, this is the first occasion ever that I have come across legislation which actually requires an Executive decision to be taken by a Legislature.  Nonetheless, that is what section 15 of the Development and Facilitation Act, Act no. 76, 1995, requires.  It is for that reason in terms of that particular section of the Act that we have brought this resolution before the House.

It is, however, necessary to explain to hon members that the same Act lays down meticulous procedures, which have to be followed in order to come up with the list of names that are annexed to this resolution.  I wish to assure the House, as I have previously assured the Portfolio Committee, and previous to that the Cabinet on several occasions, that we have in fact meticulously followed the procedures for the choosing of the names which you see here before you tonight.

The Act also contains very stringent criteria which makes it practically impossible to place on the list anybody who in fact does not qualify in terms of the criteria in the Act.  What we effectively have done here is to consult very widely with the public at large, via advertisements in the media, asking for nominations for these two Tribunals, the Development Tribunal and the Development Appeal Tribunal.

We received hundreds of applications, sir.  The first sifting of those applications was simply to eliminate every person who did not qualify in terms of the criteria laid down in the Act, and as I have indicated, those criteria are very specific.  

That reduced the number of applications very considerably, because as many of us have experienced when you advertise for positions like this there is a reaction from the public which seems to think that it is an invitation to apply for a job.  We received applications from school leavers, from the unemployed, from every category of South African that you can think of.

The team appointed to sift the applications then acted solely on the criteria to sift those who qualify from those who do not.  The only additional sifting after that was done in my Ministry, together with the Steering Committee, to eliminate over-representation on the list of a particular group and it happened also to be over-representation of a particular gender.  I can say perfectly truthfully here to the hon House, today, that we then proceeded to eliminate over-representation of white men.

The balance then have been presented to you here, everyone who qualifies, in their entirety.  Let me also hasten to assure the hon House and all the members that this does not mean that these people are all in full-time employ, or that they are all going to be serving on the Tribunals at any one time.  This is the panel from which the presiding officials will choose a panel of not less than three, and not more than six, to hear and investigate a particular developmental proposal, or in the case of the Appeal Tribunal to hear an appeal against a decision of the Development Tribunal.

I then just wish to deal very briefly with the question of the proposals for Chairperson.  I want to say that in the case of the Development Tribunal there is a very strict provision in the Act, that the Chairperson must be qualified and experienced in developmental law.  On the application of that particular criteria, it greatly reduced the number of candidates that qualified and we also had to be sure that the proposed Chairperson had sufficient time to give because if anybody does come anywhere near being a full-time member it is the Chairperson.  

The unanimous recommendation of a very representative Steering Committee were the Chairpersons that are suggested.  In the first instance, for the Development Tribunal the Chairperson suggested is no. 22, Mr Ray Albert Francis Swart, and the Deputy Chairperson suggested is Professor Charles Robinson Mandlenkosi Dlamini.  

In the case of the Appeal Tribunal, sir, here we had the situation where this Appeal Tribunal will in the relatively short term not only be acting as an Appeal Tribunal in terms of the Development Facilitation Act, but will also be acting as Appeals Board in terms of the out-going Regional Planning Ordinance, and in the third instance, will also be the appeal mechanism in terms of our Development and Planning Act which we hope will be passed at our next sitting.  We had hoped that it would happen today, but with the agreement of the Portfolio Committee, for a few technical reasons, it in fact will be delayed for approximately three to four weeks.

I am absolutely confident, and I wish to give the assurance to every member of this House, with all the authority and status of my office, and that of the Cabinet, that we are confident that we have presented to you a superb group of professionally qualified men and women, representative of all the demographic sections of our population, to start off the implementation of this very important piece of planning legislation in our Province.

Accordingly, it is my pleasure to move that this House approve this particular resolution, sir.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, we have, and crave your indulgence.  We have a predicament in that in terms of the Rules, what we have on the Order Paper you have to take a decision.  There is no motion on the Order Paper and according to the Rules, if the motion is moved today, we can only deal with it tomorrow, in terms of 151, 105(3), we can vote on it today, and I move that we give unanimous concurrence for the matter to be voted today.  I do not think anybody will object, otherwise we have to waive the Rules, because your actual motion must be published and it is not published.  

There is a problem, but we want to help the Minister.  As the hon Premier indicated we all must help each other.  So I move that 105(3) be accepted and nobody objects to the vote.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Yes, Mr Miller.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Sir, I just wish to find the relevant Rule.  We had, and I understood it to be the case, that we had the unanimous support.  We consulted the legal advisors of this Legislature beforehand.  They advised that on those grounds this was the procedure to be followed.  It had already appeared on the Order Paper and, as such, as a resolution on the Order Paper, it was interpreted by the legal advisors as having given due notice.  Therefore that we could move and vote on the issue here this evening.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, but, Mr Minister, I think what Mr Rajbansi is saying is that let us just vote.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We want to help you.  You need unanimous concurrence, Mr Speaker.  

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  So I propose that nobody objects to the vote.  That is all.  Nobody will object.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I do not think it is a problem.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It is a matter of practice.  We have done this time and again.  Shall I get an indication from the House?

MR A RAJBANSI:  No objection.  Mr Speaker, I move that in terms of the Rules, notwithstanding the fact that a motion was not tabled, we do not object to the matter being voted today.  That is my motion.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Shall we accept that?

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MOTION BY MR RAJBANSI - AGREED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We will therefore vote on this matter today.  The matter has now been introduced by the Minister.

MR A RAJBANSI:  That is a spirit of co-operation.  It is an emergency measure.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will now, in accordance with the directives that I have been given, request that somebody from the ANC gives us an indication of their support or rejection.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, I rise to support the motion that is now before the House.  I speak, firstly, in the capacity as Chair, Portfolio Committee.  We did reflect a concern and I think that when one looks at this particular list you should read it in conjunction.  I would suggest to the Department that they make all members aware of how these Tribunals work because this is not the full Tribunal.  These are the names from which the Tribunal is composed, which will be balanced between government, non-government and it will be balanced in terms of gender and race in particular.

We are concerned, but it is a fact of ~Apartheid~ that unfortunately some of those skilled positions, whether it is planning or legal or engineering, are areas that clearly Bantu Education impacted on quite seriously.

That is an area of concern.  We have suggested that in six months or so we need to review how those Tribunals are working, whether they have that balance, whether they are dealing with issues properly.  The Portfolio Committee has indicated that it will do that.

From the side of the ANC then we would like to support this motion and argue that it does appear to be a grouping of professionals that will give us the status around development issues that we require.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Dr Sutcliffe.  Before you make a contribution, I have a list here, Mr Rajbansi, that I was following.  Can I request the National Party to indicate their support or rejection?

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, we have no objection.  We support what the Minister has done.  It is comprehensive and we have examined the lists, and we fully support them.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  Can I hear from the Democratic Party.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, we support the resolution.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Can I then have Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, in the light of what our emerging Minister has stated we support the resolution [LAUGHTER].  The Minister indicated that the list can be supplemented.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I then have the ACDP.

MRS J M DOWNS:  We support the resolution.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I then have the Pan Africanist Congress.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, we support the resolution, but we are happy that the Minister and the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee did mention, that as far as the demographic balance of these people is concerned it is not correct as of now.  However, because of our history we accept that this will be reviewed.  Perhaps some time we will have the correct balance of the demography of the population in the country.

We accept the situation we are in.  We will have to work with this in good faith.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That concludes the debate on this resolution.  Mr Minister, do you want to reply to that?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Simply to record my thanks to the members for their support, sir.

RESOLUTION ON APPOINTMENT OF DEVELOPMENT TRIBUNAL - PASSED

RESOLUTION ON APPOINTMENT OF DEVELOPMENT APPEAL TRIBUNAL - PASSED 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Minister.  The resolution has been unanimously adopted.  That concludes items, 8.6 and 8.7, and also therefore concludes the business for today.  
I will now, seeing that it is just about 9 o'clock, refrain from allowing the Premier to introduce his Budget Debate.  [LAUGHTER]  I will only ask the Premier to indicate whether he has any announcements he wishes to make?

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I must say I am deeply troubled about the situation over the emergency Bill for the taxi industry.  However, technically it was not possible for this side of the House to continue with the Bill because it was not published in the Government Gazette.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  You have waived that in 10 Bills already.

THE PREMIER:  No, no, no.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE PREMIER:  No, no, let us not start a debate now.  I am giving an explanation.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE PREMIER:  I am giving an explanation.  We agree that there were some mistakes here, but let us take the attitude collectively that we shall try and manage the fall-out of this debacle.  We have to manage the fall-out, all of us, for the sake of our Province.  

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  You need political will.

THE PREMIER:  It is not political will.  Dr Sutcliffe, there are mistakes in this process.  I am not going to start that debate.  

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, we do not believe it is a matter for debate.  The Premier is now giving an explanation.  I do not think it is a matter for public debate here.  I would ask you to rule on it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I would request the Premier sticks to the.....

THE PREMIER:  I am requesting my colleagues that we share.....

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  If I could request the Premier to stick to making any announcements that are necessary.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, obviously there is no goodwill here.  I am saying we must try and manage the situation together.  21 days is not too far, and then come back to this House and work on this thing.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  INTERJECTION

THE PREMIER:  It is not going to help you, Mike Sutcliffe, to say no, no.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  We can come back tomorrow morning and we could vote on the Bill.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Premier.  Now that we have concluded everything that we wanted to agree on, and to fight about, I therefore adjourn this sitting until tomorrow.  

The House is adjourned until tomorrow at 10 o'clock in the morning.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we also have order again?  Can we have order?  Mr Naicker, Mr Bartlett, can we have order, please?  

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 20:59 UNTIL
	10:00 ON FRIDAY, 20 MARCH 1998

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION 
	FIRST SITTING - FOURTH SITTING DAY
	FRIDAY, 20 MARCH 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:06 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER ~ULUNDI~.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER
	
THE SPEAKER:  I have no announcements to make.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

THE SPEAKER:  There is no member of the Executive, so there is nothing, nobody is likely to give us any information in that regard.  The hon member, yes?

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, has just announced that there are no members of the Executive, yet there are two sitting over here.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, I have just said that, the hon member of the Executive just stand up, he should be in a position to deal with No 5.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  The third one to come in, there are two, the hon Ndebele and the hon Mkhize, they are members of the Executive of this Province.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, in that event, have you got any announcements to make?  I do not think I should call you by name, the Order Paper clearly says, "Announcements and/or report by the Premier".  If you are the Premier, please stand up and make a report.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Amper, 14 months to go.

THE SPEAKER:  If you are the Premier, Mr Ndebele, stand up and tell us.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Amper Premier.

THE SPEAKER:  You are the Premier?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Amper Premier.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  He has given us the undertaking that we will have the licences at 10:00 am.

THE SPEAKER:  I beg your pardon?  You were saying something, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, the hon MEC made an announcement in this House and he must honour his word that we have not got our licenses at 10:00 am.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, I am not going to open a debate on that, we are going by the Order Paper, and as it is now, your Premier is not here and the ostensible Premier, I am afraid, is not in a position to act for and on behalf of the Premier, so we proceed on to 6.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

THE SPEAKER:  Well, perhaps I will give consent to the Executive Member, Minister Ndebele.  I know Mr Haygarth has got two motions to move.  Will you please carry on, Mr Minister?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, just to announce that I am expecting some 65 driver's licenses of the members of this House roundabout 10:00, so that we will then make announcements as how to hand them out as soon as they arrive.

THE SPEAKER:  A wrong place to make an announcement, nevertheless, we have heard the announcement.  Be that as it may be, I will call upon Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to place on the table the Performance Audits completed for the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration during the last six months of 1996: PR27/1997; and also the Auditor-General's accounts for the Provincial Administration of KwaZulu for 1995/96, PR75/1997.

I would just like to report that these have been distributed to members during the recess, but in terms of the Rules, they must be laid on the table within 14 days of the Parliamentary Session beginning, and I am laying them on the table now.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has tabled those reports.  Mr Makhaye, you are the man of Finance, let us hear it?

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Speaker, I am tabling the reports of the Finance Committee on the budget process.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Makhaye.  Any other?  Hon Minister?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare & Pensions):  Mr Speaker, I think it will interest this House to know that the four people accused of fraud in the Masinga/Pietermaritzburg-area, were sentenced the day before yesterday in Pietermaritzburg.  Of course, two of them got away with it and two got 10 years each.  This pleases me that the Fraud Squad is doing a marvellous job.
This must act as a warning to the rest of the staff members and members of the community that are carrying on with the fraud, that that is where they will land.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister of Pensions, a good job in that event.  Yes, Mr Powell?

7.  NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to table the following Notice of Bills that have been passed through the NCOP Committee for voting and negotiation of mandates.  These are:

	The Agricultural Products Standards Amendment Bill, B24/98, negotiating a mandate has been accepted.

	The Transfer of Staff to Municipalities Bill, which is B13/98, has been accepted.

	The Department of Communications' Rationalisation Bill, B23/98, has been accepted; and

	The Province has agreed to a final voting mandate on the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill, which is B20/98.

Thank you, hon Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Powell.  Mr Naicker you may move your motion.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I will move:
	
	That in the light of the new Child Support grant announced by the National Minister of Welfare, that this House consider;

	politics with poverty by declaring that;

(a)	urban caregivers living in brick/asbestos or concrete houses qualify only if the total household income is less than R800 per month;

(b)	urban caregivers who live in informal housing structures made of material other than brick, concrete or asbestos, for example, Wendy houses, prefabs, etcetera, qualify if the total household income is less than R1 100 per month;

(c)	rural caregivers qualify regardless of what material the structures of their homes are made of, if the total household income is less than R1 100 per month.

	Therefore that this House be aware of the implications for example: 

	an urban caregiver who lives in a house made of brick, concrete or asbestos, and has a total household income of more than R800 and less than R1 100 per month does not qualify whereas a rural caregiver with the same circumstances, does qualify; 

	and that this House notes that in the above example we speak of people with the same economic disabilities, yet the qualifying criteria are different.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Any further motions?  Yes, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, Mr Speaker, thank you.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That it be noted and recognised that there are deficiencies and discrepancies in the Local Government Transition Act of 1993 which has been the product of trade-offs at the national negotiation arena in 1993, and that the pre-interim and the interim councils have been established in our Province also and it be recognised that the transition is progressing fairly satisfactorily;

	that the Government's White Paper in Local Government is welcomed as it addressed to a very large extent the shortcomings in the present system;

	the proposal in respect of the executive wages, single rating system, reduced size of councillors, are welcomed, and;

	that the House notes with very serious concern that contrary to popular expression in KwaZulu-Natal, that the option proposed in the White Paper about the two tier system in the Metro Council System, will reduce the substructures merely to advisory bodies and in fact, may be regarded as glorified LAC's, and therefore calls upon - now Mr Speaker, I do not want any disturbance, please.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for that, Mr Rajbansi.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR A RAJBANSI:  I will repeat that:

	Glorified LAC's, or toothless bulldogs, or toy telephones, as the hon Dr Mike Sutcliffe used to refer to LAC's, and therefore calls upon - it also means ... [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, I wish you would say what you have to say, let alone, if you think they are disturbing you, sit down and I will call them to stop, and then you will have a chance to proceed.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes.

	Calls upon the Provincial Government to make representations to the Highest Level to ensure that the second option is amended so as to maintain the dignity and respectability of the substructure councils.  

Thank you.  I hope I get the support of Dr Mike Sutcliffe.  I have defeated him in the electoral court.

THE SPEAKER:  We are not debating your motion at the present moment.  If you require any lobbying, go to Dr Sutcliffe.  Yes, the hon Minister?

8.1	RESOLUTIONS ARISING OUT OF DEBATE ON MATTER OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE. 

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, I will move on the next sitting day: 

	That this House resolves to request the hon President of South Africa and the hon Premier of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal in terms of section 84(2)(f) and 127(2)(e) of the Constitution of South Africa to institute a Joint Commission of Inquiry with the following terms of reference:

	1.	that it investigates all allegations, I repeat, all allegations, implicating members of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature made in the debate on the matter of public importance called for by the hon Mr Powell in terms of Rule 100 of the Standing Rules of the Provincial Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal which took place on Thursday 19 March 1998 in the Legislature in ~Ulundi~;

	2.	that such Commission report back to the hon President and Premier on their findings within six months of their appointment; and

	3.	that all members of this Legislature make themselves open to that Commission without reserve.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Oh yes, Minister Singh?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

	That a Select Committee of this House be appointed to investigate allegations made in the House by Minister Ndebele regarding alleged activities of Mr A J Konigkramer, to determine whether there has been a breach of Parliamentary privilege.  The composition of the committee to be determined by the Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Rehman?

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Speaker, I will move:

	That this hon House send a get well card with a speedy recovery message to Professor Fatima Meer, the spouse of our hon and respected colleague Mr I C Meer who underwent triple by-pass surgery.  May Almighty give them both strength to pull through this difficult time.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Adv Schutte?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, I do hereby give notice that at the next sitting day, I will move the following motion, that:

	In view of the continuing allegations of political and police involvement in criminal activity, the fact that many of the investigations in such activity have remained unresolved; and

	in view of specific allegations made in this regard during a debate in this Legislature on the 19th of March 1998;  and further

	in view of the general responsibility of Provincial Legislatures to monitor police conduct and to oversee the effectiveness and efficiency of Police Services, including receiving reports on the police service. 

	THE LEGISLATURE hereby calls on the Premier to appoint a commission of inquiry in terms of Sections 127(2)(e), 206(3)(a), (b) and (c) and 206 (5)(a) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, with the following terms of reference:

	To investigate, monitor, report on and make recommendations on the effectiveness and efficiency of police investigations in the involvement of police officers, political representatives, political and related organisations in:

	(a)	armed robberies involving banks and pension pay-out points.

	(b)	violent organised crime.

	(c)	the smuggling of fire arms.

	(d)	the interference with political motives in police investigations and the due process of justice through the courts as referred to in the debate in the Legislature on the 19th of March 1998 and further amplified by the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security within 21 days, and relating to alleged incidents having taken place in KwaZulu-Natal after the 1994 elections.  

		The commission shall have the power to call witnesses and take evidence.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Adv Schutte.  Yes, Mr Nel?

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, also arising from yesterday's debate, I give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

	That this House having regard to the serious allegations in the media (inter alia the Natal Witness of 13 and 14 January 1998) about the existence and activities of, and I quote, "A secret unit of highly trained soldiers" around Pietermaritzburg and in the KwaZulu-Natal Midlands together with allegations in this House on 19 March 1998, in the debate on a matter of Public importance;

	and recognising the general constitutional responsibility vested in the Premier in terms of section 127 (2)(e) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa to appoint commissions of enquiry, when appropriate, read together with the powers conferred on the Province to promote law and order in terms of section 206 (3), and the specific authority to appoint commissions of enquiry in terms of section 206 (5) of the Constitution, this House hereby calls on the hon Premier to appoint a commission of enquiry with the following terms of reference:

	1.	That the commission investigate whether, I quote, "a secret unit of highly trained soldiers" has been operative and involved in serious crimes around Pietermaritzburg and the KwaZulu-Natal Midlands as reported in the media in January 1998; and

	2.	If such a unit gang exists, the commission investigate whether it is known as "ANC Select" and whether it has operated with either the tacit or explicit approval of senior office bearers of the African National Congress in the region or alternatively whether such office bearers had knowledge of its existence or general activities.
 		
	3.	That the Commission investigate progress made by the SAPS in various criminal investigations relating to crimes in which the alleged unit was allegedly involved including specific crimes referred to in the Hansard of the KwaZulu-Natal Parliament of 19 March 1998.

	4.	That the Commission further investigate allegations made in that debate about alleged involvement of the hon Members, Messrs Konigkramer and Powell, in certain illegal activities in the course of that debate; and

	5.	That the Commission report on its findings and make recommendations as soon as possible, but not later than four months after its appointment.

I move.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Any further motions?  Oh, Dr Sutcliffe would not be out-done.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, I would like to move on the next sitting day of this House:

	That this House establish a Select Committee to investigate the operations of the Natal Witness with respect to its involvement in making and publishing allegations against members of this House.

Thank you, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  No further motions?  I have a request here in terms of Rule 74 (2), made by the hon Mr Konigkramer and I therefore call upon Mr Konigkramer to put his case.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, during yesterday's sitting ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please, order, order.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, during yesterday's session of this House, the hon Minister of Transport, Mr Ndebele, made two allegations.  First of all, he said that I had visited Mr Sifiso Nkabinde behind the back of my party, and then, (b), he went further and he said that this showed that I was a member of the Third Force.  Mr Speaker, I just want to explain, first of all, I do not want to get into the party politics of the thing, I in fact was ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please, Mr Makhaye, I do not want to take you out of the House, I do not want to do that.  Will the hon member please proceed.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  No, I have not asked Mr Makhaye to leave, I said he should behave himself.  I do not want to take him out.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  No, I am not leaving this House.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh, thank you very much.  Perhaps you think it is high time we left any way.  The hon member, please?

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House that I was approached through an advocate to, at the request of Mr Sifiso Nkabinde, to visit him in prison.  I considered it my duty, as a public representative, to go there ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Although, I would suggest, that the reason Mr Nkabinde is imprisoned is because of my activities, which were opposed by certain members opposite.  Mr Speaker, I visited Mr Nkabinde on three occasions.  On all three occasions I visited him in the presence of advocates of the Supreme Court of South Africa.  I would also like to inform this House that on all those occasions, Mr Bushy Engelbrecht sought to prevent my seeing Mr Nkabinde, which I think is illegal and unconstitutional.

Mr Speaker, in view of that, I would then further point out that the African National Congress has repeatedly stated that the Third Force is responsible for destabilising this Province, and that it is responsible for the murder of black people.

Given that background, Mr Speaker, I would like to call on the hon Minister Ndebele to either withdraw that remark and apologise, or alternatively, we are happy to have it investigated, his allegations, by a select Committee of this House.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  The matter is not open to debate in terms of the Rule.  We will therefore proceed in terms of the Order Paper and we will deal with the Order of the day, which means the Resolutions arising out of debate on matters of public importance.  The hon Mr Tarr?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, you will have noted from the various motions that were made in the House this morning, that there appears to be some sort of agreement emerging regarding the appointment of a commission.  Mr Speaker, in view of that, we would like to request you that this matter, with our resolution on the Order Paper stand over until the next sitting of this House, when it may even be possible for the parties to come with an agreed measure to the House.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Well, great minds think alike and fools never differ.  May I hear what the hon Minister of Health has to say?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Mr Speaker, I rise on two points.  Firstly, we on this side of the House, would support the proposal from the hon member Mr Mike Tarr, but secondly, Mr Speaker, during the debate, the hon member Mr Konigkramer, said to this House that two members - he mentioned specifically the names that I can recall, Mr Bright Mthembu, as having been a bodyguard ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Shall we therefore allow this, Mr Minister, to be dealt with when the motion gets addressed, please.  I would request that the Minister would hold his horses and then, when the matter gets discussed, he can find that out, he is entitled to do so.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Sorry, Premier, I am not debating, I am rising on the same ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, let us hear what the point of order is.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, may I enquire from the hon member in terms of what rule he is speaking?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Rule 74, Mr Speaker, and what I want ...

THE SPEAKER:  Well, Rule 74 allows no debate.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  It is not a debate, Mr Speaker, it is a point ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  A point of information.

AN HON MEMBER:  An explanation.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Yes, Mr Speaker, I wanted the hon member to actually explain in this House, why he was misleading the House on raising these particular matters.

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute.  I have a problem, because here, in terms of 74 (1):

	An explanation during debate is allowed only when a material part of a member's speech has been misquoted, or misunderstood, but such member shall not be permitted to introduce any new matter, and no debate shall be allowed upon such explanation.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health): That is the clarity I am trying to make, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  An hon member can only break the Rule if the Speaker allows him to do so.

	(2)  A member may, with the prior consent of the presiding officer, also explain matters of a personal nature, but such matters may not be debated, and the member shall confine himself or herself strictly to the vindication of his or her own conduct and may not speak for longer than three minutes.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Let me finish off, please, hon Minister.  I have not been approached for this consent, which I would have gladly given, by the hon Minister.  I would have gladly given him the opportunity he seeks now.  In terms of the Rule, you must have the consent of the Presiding Officer.  This has not happened.  And I would have very much liked to give you that consent and in that sense therefore, it becomes out of order for me to do that.

And I am trying to point out that actually, in fact in terms of the Rule, the hon Minister - if he invokes 74, the Minister is out of order, because he has not obtained the consent of the presiding officer.  That is what I am trying to point out.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  May I apologise, Mr Speaker, I had hoped that I would actually in standing up ask for the permission.  May I do so, Mr Speaker?

THE SPEAKER:  I am sorry, there is nothing I can do, no request has in fact been made.  The Minister is aware of that, we will not circumvent the Rules for any reason whatsoever.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker, I apologise.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  And I will call upon Adv Schutte?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, will you allow me to address the House on the proposal by the hon Whip, that this debate stands adjourned?

THE SPEAKER:  Yes.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, our view is that the debate has disclosed very serious allegations, implicating members of this House, implicating parties in this House, and as a result, implicating the dignity of this House.  There could be no doubt that we need an investigation into this matter, but it is in the interest of this House and all concerned, that when the terms of references are worked out, that it be done by consensus, and if there is time needed for that purpose, we will gladly accede to the request.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it seems as though Item 8.1 is then being disposed of, and Mr Speaker, you know, the next item is the budget speech and we request that the House be adjourned until 11 o'clock when the budget speech will commence.

THE SPEAKER:  At 11 o'clock, you have exactly 25 minutes before that time.  Well, it will be my pleasure to adjourn the House until 11 o'clock when the hon Premier will present his budget.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 10:37
	RESUMED AT 11:23

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  When the House was adjourned, we had completed the debate on 8.1.  We now proceed on the Order Paper to 8.2 and that is the presentation by the hon Premier on the KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill.

8.2	KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon Premier?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, colleagues and members of this hon House, we shall all recall that this budget presentation comes against a background of real problems in the Province.

We had such levels of expenditure in our 1997/98 budget, that it became necessary for me to appoint a three-man commission to investigate the causes of over-expenditure in this current financial year.  They are Mr Wilfred Ngubane, who will be the Chairperson, he is a chartered accountant in practice in Durban.  He has done forensic work for the Government before.  Mr Ron Hardman, who also served on the Mtiyane Commission on Health, and Mr Jo Venter, a former official who is well versed in State finances.  They will report on various matters, pertaining to the manner in which departments handled their finances during 1997/98, and what steps should be taken to curb over-expenditure.  As soon as their report is available, I will take appropriate steps to inform this Parliament.

Mr Speaker, Ministers and Members of Parliament, we have assembled here to begin once again a session which offers us an opportunity to carry out the duties that have been bestowed upon us by the citizens of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Without mincing words, I wish to begin my speech with a warning that the 1998/99 financial year will pose the most difficult financial and fiscal challenges to the Government, to the legislators and to the people of this Province.  However, if we work hard and diligently, and also in the spirit of unison and understanding, I believe strongly that we will succeed in bringing the economy and finances of this Province back on track.

Mr Speaker, since I presented the last budget to this House, a number of developments have taken place in the country, which have serious budgetary implications for this Province.  I would, therefore, like to take a few minutes to review some of these events with the aim of providing a background to the financial crisis currently confronting the Province and the measures my Government has taken, or intends to take, to address the crisis.

ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE AND FISCAL POLICY.

The macro-economic strategy of the National Government was outlined in the Growth, Employment and Redistribution strategy document, (GEAR), published in June 1996.  The strategy focuses on the need to enhance the country's international competitiveness and consolidate the fiscal position.  The strategy also emphasises the importance of redistribution in Government expenditure priorities and the role of sectoral policies in meeting basic needs and improving services to previously disadvantaged people and the poor.  The National Government's position is that economic growth should be translated into the redistribution of incomes and opportunities through appropriate social development programmes, economic empowerment and conscious promotion of employment creation.

Economic growth is recognised the world over as an important precondition for job creation as well as for the sustainable provision of public services and the improved redistribution of income.  The National Minister of Finance reported that, during the 1997/98 fiscal year the South African economy grew by 1,7 percent in real terms, much less than the GEAR target of 2,9 percent.  This is indeed a dismal performance, because with an estimated average population growth of 2,4 percent, the 1,7 percent GDP growth implies a decline of 0,7 percent in the per capita real incomes of the people of this country.

In the area of fiscal policy, the goals of the National Government are twofold:

	-	To maintain sound public finances, so that public debt does not grow faster than the country's ability to repay it; and
	-	To ensure that debt service costs, as a share of total expenditure, decline, so that resources can be freed to finance the delivery of essential services.

In order to achieve the fiscal goals, the National Government is making every conceivable effort to ensure that borrowing is not used to finance current expenditure, but is used only for investment; that consumption spending as a share of national income is reduced; that pay increases are limited to within fiscally responsible limits; and that public sector investment in social and economic infrastructures are increased.

In line with the tight fiscal policy, the national budget for the 1997/98 financial year provided for an initial deficit of 4 percent of GDP, but this turned out to be revised upwards to 4,3 percent as announced by the National Minister of Finance.  The slower than expected growth in the economy, will not only have a significant negative impact on revenues of both the National and Provincial Governments, but also together with the tight fiscal policy, they will dash any hope of meeting the job creation target.  Mr Speaker, we welcome the Minister of Finance's announcement on the elimination of the bracket creep in our tax system.  We also welcome the increase of the threshold of marginal taxation.  This will have the impact of stimulating investment.

Mr Speaker, budgetary planning and procedures play a crucial role in ensuring the achievement of Government fiscal objectives.  To this end, the National Government has initiated a major reform in the area of fiscal planning, beginning with the 1998/99 fiscal year.  The key element of the reform is the introduction of a Medium Term Expenditure Framework, popularly known as MTEF, which involves a process of three-year rolling budgets at all levels of Government.  The MTEF is, thus, expected to provide the link between the technical preparation of budgets and the political priorities in expenditure plans.

During the year, several discussions between the National Departments of Finance and State Expenditure and Provincial Treasuries on the indicative allocations for the next three years took place and were approved by the National Cabinet.  The National Government took the final decision on the allocation of funds for the 1998/99 fiscal year towards the end of 1997.  These allocations were based on a formula developed by the Financial and Fiscal Commission, known as the FFC, with the formula itself driven largely by the demographic and economic profiles of the provinces.

Mr Speaker, the results of the October 1995 Household Survey show that the Province of KwaZulu-Natal is predominantly rural, with about 73,1 percent of the African population living in the countryside.  The same survey shows that 15 percent of the population of people of 20 years of age and above, have no form of education, and only 19,4 percent have had an education up to standard five.  About 66,4 percent of the population of this Province travel a distance of more than five kilometres before reaching a nearby health centre, and 57,3 percent have no flush toilets in their dwellings.  While some 21,3 percent of the urban population have no water on site, in the rural areas the figure is 81,2 percent.  In summary, the survey results point to a Province in dire need for school facilities, health services, sanitation, water, and other social and physical infrastructures.

Mr Speaker, while I am very much aware of the need for accelerated economic growth in the Province, the socio-economic realities are such that the focus of Government policy should be on human development.  Human development is a process that leads to the enlargement of people's choices in many areas.

The human development process brings about a choice to lead a long and healthy life; acquire knowledge and skills; have access to resources needed for a decent standard of living; participate in political, economic and social activities and process them in a creative and productive manner; and enjoy personal self-respect and guaranteed human rights.  Over the medium term, Government will redirect a large share of its resources towards human development, while searching vigorously for private support and finance for investment and economic growth.

The incidence of crime has become one of the major problems facing both the National and Provincial Governments.  In the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, the crime wave appears to have dropped since 1996, although there have been isolated cases involving farmers and tourists.  The Government is seriously addressing this problem together with the private sector and the police service and other security agencies.  The recently held crime summit in the Province, has opened up new ideas and strategies which we hope will meet all the needs to combat crime and improve the safety of our citizens.

Mr Speaker, the Government cannot achieve all its objectives at one go, given the serious constraints imposed by resource availability and capacity to deliver.  In this context, the Government has no choice but to prioritise its goals and to ensure that these priorities are consistent with the national macro-economic and fiscal framework.  At the national level, the guideline for these choices is clear.  That is, the needs of the poor and the prospects of our children come first.  Coincidentally, these choices reflect the socio-economic realities of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, as well as the priorities determined at the Budget Indaba at San Lameer in June 1997.

The provincial MTEF has therefore attempted to articulate these choices in a systematic and comprehensive way, both in the 1998/99 budget and the indicative figures for the 1999/2000 and 2000/2001 financial years.  The goal of the MTEF is to endeavour to halt the accumulation of backlogs in social services, and if resources permit, to begin removing these backlogs.

THE 1997/98 BUDGET.

Mr Speaker, last year I presented a budget of R16,602 billion for the approval of this House.  I deeply regret to report today that we could not operate within this budget.  By the end of March 1998, the projected actual expenditure of the Province will amount to R19,763 billion, leaving a deficit of R1,952 billion.

The bulk of the expenditure surge has come from increases in personnel costs and payments of social grants.  Total Provincial personnel costs amounted to R10,730 billion, or 54,7 percent of the total Provincial expenditure in the 1997/98 fiscal year.  Together with social security payments, the two expenditure items amounted to R14,238 billion, representing 72,6 percent of the total Provincial expenditure.  During the period under review, actual expenditure on personnel for the whole Province increased by R1,317 billion and social grants by R441,80 million.  I must also mention that the expenditure of the three major Departments of Education, Health, and Social Welfare together amounted to R15,836 billion, or 80.8 percent of the total actual Provincial expenditure for 1997/98.

Not only that but also the three departments together, overspent their budget by some R2,644 billion, much more than the total Provincial budget deficit.  Increases in expenditure in Education and Health Departments have also come from the large jumps in personnel costs.  Personnel costs accounted for 89,9 percent of the total expenditure in Education, and 63,1 percent in Health.  During the 1997/98 fiscal year, personnel costs in Education and Health increased by R1,302 billion.

The statistics I have just provided, show that a disproportionate share of the portfolio of the Provincial expenditure is taken up by personnel costs and payments of social grants.  The increases in these expenditures come mainly from two sources, both of which are structural in nature.  First, personnel costs and social grants are either prescribed in law, in regulations, or in agreements reached at National level over which the Provincial Government has no control.  This means that there is very little flexibility in reducing these costs annually without changing the laws, regulations, and/or the design of the programme of social grants payments.  Second, the increases in personnel costs and social grants are a response to the increases in demand for social services and facilities, arising from the large and growing backlogs in education, health and social welfare.  In this case, the increases in costs cannot be curtailed or stabilised without first removing the backlogs.

Mr Speaker, the process of bringing about reforms in expenditure is a formidable task.  The measures adopted have to be pragmatic and adequate to achieve the intended objectives.  The measures also have to be economically, politically and socially feasible to implement.  The measures that my Government intends to introduce to address the expenditure crisis, must therefore be viewed against the background of these factors.

By the way, I probably should just explain, when we talk of a billion, we are talking of a thousand million.  So when I say 15,000m, I mean 15 billion.

PROVINCIAL BUDGET DEFICIT.

As I have mentioned earlier, the Province is facing a projected deficit of R1,952 billion.  About 96 percent of this deficit is attributed to the under-funding of personnel costs in the Departments of Education and Health and increases in social grants.

The remaining four percent is attributed to fraud and corruption, inadequate management processes, lapses in financial control, and filling of critical posts in some departments.  Given the nature and causes of the deficit and the need to finance it from our own initiatives, the Government has resolved to take the following three measures:

1.	To apply for an amount of R900 million from the funds made available in the national adjustment estimates to support provinces in severe financial crises.

2.	To request for an approval for a bridging finance amounting to R500 million.

3.	To examine innovative ways to raise revenue for capital projects.  We shall, however - and I would like to emphasize this - we shall, however, not sell off the family silver as has been reported in some of the media, in order to finance Government consumption.  If we do, it will be in the sense of out-sourcing programmes, as well as funding capital projects.

Mr Speaker, I must admit and also emphasize, that each of the three measures I have mentioned has its own serious implications for the Province.  In the first case, the request may be approved subject to conditions negotiated and agreed upon between the Province and the National Government, in accordance with section 100 (1)(a) of the National Constitution.  Among the conditions put forward by the National Government is the requirements that 85 percent of the total Provincial budget for 1998/99 should be allocated to Education, Health and Social Welfare leaving only 15 percent to be shared among the remaining departments.  Further that revenue from Provincial sources should be enhanced; and thirdly, that strict financial control should be instituted.

Departmental allocations for the 1998/99 fiscal year must therefore be viewed against these conditions.  In the second case, the National Constitution requires that a bridging loan must be redeemed over a period of 12 months, and more important, that the loan cannot be raised as a continuous and unlimited source of credit.  This means that funds must be set aside in the 1998/99 financial year to be used to repay this bridging loan.

PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT PLAN.

On realising, in the last quarter of 1997, that the Province was heading for a financial crisis, Cabinet moved quickly and approved a comprehensive plan, designed to reduce costs, enhance revenue, utilise resources effectively, and generally improve the budgetary process.  The Performance Enhancement Plan, as it is called, comprises of both short and long term strategies to be implemented in the major departments over a period of 18 to 36 months.

Mr Speaker, I am happy to announce that the results of the implementation of the plan since October 1997 in the Department of Health, are very encouraging.  In fact, it is estimated that actual savings in the Department of Health, will amount to some R181 million by the end of March 1998.  I would like to congratulate the Minister on this success.  In the Department of Education and the Department of Social Welfare, the process is still continuing, and so, at this stage, we do not have the final figures.  I want to make it clear at this juncture that the Performance Enhancement Plan has the approval of the Cabinet of this Province and no department or individual will be allowed to undermine its implementation.  Heads of departments, particularly in Education, Health and Social Welfare, will be held directly responsible for the success, failure, or non-implementation of the Performance Enhancement Plan.

PERSONNEL COSTS.

The expenditure crisis has shown quite clearly the need to reduce personnel costs, in particular, personnel costs in the Departments of Education and Health, seeing that it is the most visible and substantial component of the Provincial expenditure.  Personnel costs typically absorb more than 90 percent of the budget of Education, leaving almost nothing for renewed infrastructure, curriculum reform and material support.  Meanwhile, we are not able to build classrooms, and therefore, much of the school system is suffering from poor management, high repetition rate, absenteeism and inadequate work effort.  This development cannot be allowed to continue forever.

Growth of spending on education personnel needs to be curtailed, so that some resources can be freed and used to provide facilities, as well as material support, as well as quality-enhancing initiatives and improved management.

In this regard, the Government has endorsed the Department of Education Human Resources Management Plan that, among others, will set teacher quotas in accordance with pupil numbers and also calls for the redeployment of teachers from over-staffed to under-staffed schools based on the teacher-pupil ratios.  The Government has also given an approval to the Department's plan to terminate the contracts of 5 000 temporary educators, effective from 1 April 1998.

In the Department of Health, the promotion of a district-based primary health system, supported by a co-ordinated programme of improved hospital administration and service delivery must be the first priority.  This means that the Department of Health will have to restructure the provincial and district hospital's system, with the view to reducing wastage, scaling down services, and reducing personnel numbers.

In the case of Social Welfare, Government expects efforts to be strengthened in the 1998/99 financial year to improve social security management and to root out fraud and abuse.  In this regard I would like to thank the Minister of Social Welfare for the successes he has had in apprehending and having convictions granted against a number of people who have been responsible for fraud in the pensions payment system.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):

CIVIL SERVICE RESTRUCTURING.

Sustainable expenditure reform requires a review of the underlying Government policies, composition of expenditure, coverage of activities of the public sector, and the modes of delivery of public services.  In addition, a government's ability to achieve expenditure consolidation depends on the size and quality of its civil service, existing management practices, and quality of its budget.

For these reasons, the Government has engaged itself in an exercise aimed at examining its role and scope of operations.  Discussions and consultations on what the Government should do and pay for and what it should neither pay for nor do are ongoing.  This exercise is expected to lead to a restructuring of the civil service and a development of a new organisational structure, which will enable the civil service to focus on the core business of Government.  The restructuring process will also include re-engineering, that is rethinking and redesigning of work process, with the view to enhancing efficiency and effectiveness, as well as achieving economy in spending.

NEW MANAGEMENT PRACTICES.

In support of the envisaged civil service reform, Government will introduce a new approach of management, which will place emphasis on performance, decentralisation, application of market principles, and accountability.  In this regard, departments will be required to develop, in exchange for managerial autonomy, specific mechanisms for articulating their objectives, and performance indicators to facilitate in-year monitoring and year-end evaluation.

It is expected that a commitment from each Cabinet colleague and each head of department is made in this respect.  Each department will be required to indicate the outputs and outcomes that will be achieved with the allocations that will be announced today.  These objectives and performance indicators should also be reflected in the budgets that will be presented by each department to this House.  In addition, full compliance with rules, regulations, and directives governing expenditure management and maintenance of budget discipline will strictly be enforced.  Heads of departments, in particular, must take a serious note of this requirement.

PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP.

Currently our partnership with the private sector covers mainly the contracting of services and management.  Government is in the process of developing strategies to broaden and intensify its partnership with the private sector.  The new emphasis on the public-private partnership is threefold.

First, Government will direct its efforts and resources to seek joint participation and financing of capital projects in the health and education sector, tourist industry and the small, medium and micro-enterprise sectors.

Second, the out-sourcing of services, such as transportation, cleaning, maintenance, catering, provided and funded by the Government, will be intensified.  Third, Government will engage the private sector in discussions and consultations with a view to acquiring new ideas and best management practices.

Thirdly, we are involved in extensive discussions with organised business and industry in our Province to work closely together in managing the 1998/99 budget and the MTEF itself.  The objective is to achieve fiscal discipline and good governance of the highest order.  Consequently, we are going to put in systems to manage cash flows in four tranches over this fiscal year and ensure downstream management of expenditure.  And this, of course, will be a major departure from traditional practice, where departments expect cash flows which would be announced at the beginning of the fiscal year and then just manage on those cash flows.  This time it will be in tranches and re-evaluated every quarter.

GOVERNMENT-LABOUR RELATIONSHIP.

Given the constraints on resources, Government cannot spend randomly, but expenditure must be directed to the priority areas.  It is sad to find that some Government resources are wasted through the incidence of fraud and corruption.  We accept that Government has to do more in the eradication of crime, fraud and corruption.  It is also the responsibility of organised labour to ensure that fraud and corruption are removed from the workplace.  The support and co-operation of organised labour will also be required to make the restructuring and/or reorganisation of Government operations a success.

THE 1998/99 BUDGET

REVENUE.

Mr Speaker, now I turn to the 1998/99 budget, beginning with the revenue side.  The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa requires that nationally raised revenues be shared equitably among the three spheres of Government to enable them to provide basic services and perform the functions assigned to them.  Sub-national governments, however, have the responsibility of drawing their own budgets, within expenditure allocations consistent with the national policy priorities.

The National Government is not to control the details of the sub-national budgets, but can influence them indirectly through agreed policies and legislation setting norms and standards.  The National Constitution also places limitations on the power of the sub-national governments to raise revenue, however, it indicates that any additional revenues raised by a province, or municipality, cannot be deducted from its equitable share.

Mr Speaker, total transfers from the National Exchequer to the Province for the 1998/99 financial year is R17,404 million.  This figure, which excludes provisions for improvement in conditions of service in 1998, is made up of a Provincial equitable share of R16,175,722 million, Education and Health conditional grants of R657,278 million, a once-off Local Government conditional grant of R568,000 million, and a conditional grant of R730 million to correct the base upon which Provincial budgets are drawn.  Compared with the 1997/98 allocation to the Province, the 1998/99 allocation of the equitable share, represents an increase of about 8,7 percent.

Mr Speaker, I must emphasise that the allocation to the Province for the 1998/99 financial year has been adversely affected by two major factors.  First, the results of the 1996 population census were used in the revenue sharing formula.  The census figures, however, show considerable changes in population across the provinces.  In our case, the census figure used indicates a decline in the population of the Province.

Second, another important element in the revenue sharing formula are the provincial tax shares, which take account of the level of economic activity as measured by the gross geographical product, relying on the assumption that a high correlation exists between economic activity and revenue generation.  The tax shares component thus reflects the provincial own-revenue that would have been raised if the funds were not collected nationally.

Here again, the figure used for the Province shows a decline in economic activity, and thus in the tax share.  Thus, in both the demographic and economic components of the revenue allocation, the Province loses.

PROVINCIAL OWN-REVENUE.

Revenue collected from Provincial sources is estimated to be R536,236 million in 1998/99, representing only R6,236 million, or 1,2 percentage increase over the 1997/98 figure.  Given the resourcefulness of this Province, an increase of less than 2 percent in revenue could still be improved upon.

As I mentioned last year, revenue collected from our own sources is very important to the Province.  In addition to helping us to measure the ability of the Province, to mobilise resources, to finance its responsibilities, such revenues also assist us to narrow the gap between provincial demands and the resources made available from the National Exchequer.

The issue of mobilising additional resources from provincial sources seems to occupy a less important role in the Province.  Inasmuch as expenditures are to be planned in the context of a medium term framework, it is only appropriate that detailed revenue planning is also undertaken so that appropriate balances could be maintained between expenditure and revenue at all stages of the process.  To this end, the Provincial Treasury and all departments charged with the responsibility of collecting revenue for the Province must begin a detailed revenue planning exercise, and this indeed has begun, with the view to setting realistic and achievable targets for each collecting agency.  As an incentive for increased revenue mobilisation, Government has decided that it will allow any revenue collected over and above the set target, to be kept by the collecting agency involved, and I hope that will be good news for the Minister of Transport.

EXPENDITURE.

The budget for the 1998/99 financial year for the whole Province is R17,937,236 million.  In relation to the total requested budget, this amount represents a reduction of about 21 percent.

When compared to the 1997 budget, however, the 1998/99 budget indicates an increase of 10,4 percent, when all the conditional grants are also added to the equitable allocation, but a reduction of 9,2 percent relative to the projected actual 
expenditure in 1997/98.

ALLOCATIONS TO DEPARTMENTS.

Mr Speaker, I now move to announce the allocations for the 1998/99 financial year.  These allocations tell a very sad story of this Province.  The allocations do not include improvement in conditions of service for 1998.  These will be paid into our Treasury as we progress in the course of the fiscal year.  These allocations are largely influenced by the desire to begin to tackle head-on the structural problems in the social sector.

VOTE 1:  PREMIER.

Last year, a provision of R246,053 million, including an amount of R158,800 million for Provincial Lead Projects, was made for the Premier's Department.  This year, a provision of R59,473 million is made for the Premier's Department.  The 1998/99 allocation represents a decrease of 31,8 percent of the 1997/98 allocation, excluding the provision for the Provincial Lead Projects, 35 percent less compared with the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98, and 32 percent less of the requested budget for 1998/99.

VOTE 2:  PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE.

The allocation to the Provincial Legislature for the 1998/99 financial year is R43,828 million, representing a reduction of only 2,8 percent of the 1997/98 allocation.  Compared with the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98, however, the 1998/99 provision is 20,4 percent less.  Also compared with the requested budget for 1998/99, the current allocation represents a decrease of about 18 percent.

VOTE 3:  AGRICULTURE.

The sum of R243,650m is allocated to Agriculture for the 1998/99 financial year.  This figure shows a decrease of 29,2 percent of the 1997/98 budget, but 32 percent decrease relative to the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98.  Compared with the requested budget for 1998/99, the decrease is 29 percent.

VOTE 4:  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND TOURISM.

An amount of R83,461 million is allocated to Economic Affairs and Tourism for the 1998/99 financial year.  This sum is 26,5 percent less than the 1997/98 allocation, but 2 percent more than the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98.  Compared to the requested budget, the 1998/99 allocation is 26 percent less.

VOTE 5:  EDUCATION AND CULTURE.

A provision of R6,869,000 million is made for Education in the 1998/99 budget.  This amount represents some 12,2 percent increase over the 1997/98 allocation, but 7,8 percent less compared with the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98.  This figure is also 29,2 percent less than the requested budget for 1998/99.  The allocation to Education is influenced largely by both the national guidelines and Provincial goal of funding education adequately in order to prevent the continuous accumulation of backlogs in the sector.

VOTE 6:  FINANCE AND AUXILIARY SERVICES.

In 1997/98, Finance and Auxiliary Services was allocated an amount of R168,211 million.  The projected actual expenditure for the Department in 1997/98 is, however, R90,337 million, leaving a surplus of R77,874 million.  For the 1998/99 financial year, a provision of R527,900 million is made for Finance and Auxiliary Services.  This figure includes an amount of R426,000 million to be used to redeem the bridging loan of R500 million we are seeking to partly finance the deficit of the 1997/98 financial year.

Taking this figure out, the actual allocation to Finance and Auxiliary Services is R101,900 million, representing a decrease of 39,4 percent of the 1997/98 allocation, but an increase of 12,8 percent of the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98.  Compared with the requested budget, however, the 1998/99 provision represents a decline of 4,1 percent.

VOTE 7:  HEALTH.

The sum of R4,464,000 million is allocated to Health for the 1998/99 financial year.  This figure, which includes a conditional grant of R657,278 million, is 20,2 percent more than the 1997/98 allocation, but 19,8 percent less than the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98, and 28,8 percent less than the requested amount for 1998/99.  Like Education, the allocation for Health is influenced largely by both the policy of funding health services adequately in order to stop the accumulation of backlogs in basic health services.  It is also expected that the continued success of the Performance Enhancement Plan will lead to substantial savings for the Department in 1998/99.

VOTE 8:  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING.

The budget for Local Government and Housing for 1998/99 financial year is R801,700 million.  This allocation, which includes a conditional grant of R568,000 million, represents a 19,5 percent reduction of the 1997/98 budget, and a 17 percent reduction compared to the projected actual expenditure for 1997/98.  In relation to the requested budget, the 1998/99 allocation represents a 20 percent reduction.

VOTE 9:  SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICES.

The South African Police Services (SAPS) was allocated a sum of R3,191 million in the 1997/98 financial year.  The allocation for the South African Police Service in the 1998/99 financial year is R1,078 million.  This obviously, is because we do not control policing functions per se, we relate to the community side of policing, which obviously requires smaller amounts.  Unfortunately, I must emphasise this, that we could have done with more money in this section, but the budgetary constraints dictate otherwise.  This amount represents a decrease of 1 percent relative to the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98, but a cutback of some 61 percent of the requested budget for 1998/99.

VOTE 10:  PROVINCIAL SERVICE COMMISSION.

In the 1997/98 financial year, the Provincial Service Commission (PSC) was allocated an amount of R8,756 million.  It is projected that actual expenditure by the PSC in 1997/98 will amount to R5,663 million, leaving a surplus of R3,093 million.  The actual expenditure of the PSC in 1997/98 has been increased in the 1998/99 budget by 18 percent to R6,682m.  Compared with the requested budget, however, the 1998/99 allocation is less by 20 percent.

VOTE 11:  TRADITIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS.

Traditional and Environmental Affairs has been allocated the sum of R162,950 million for the 1998/99 financial year, representing a reduction of R27,819 million of the allocation for 1997/98.  The 1998/99 allocation is 14 percent less than the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98, but 20 percent less than the requested budget for 1998/99.

VOTE 12:  TRANSPORT.

The budget for Transport for the 1998/99 financial year is R444,190 million.  This allocation represents a 25,7 percent reduction in the 1997/98 budget, but 32 percent less than the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98.  Compared with the requested budget, the 1998/99 allocation indicates a reduction of some 57 percent.  It is expected that the intensification of the revenue generation activities of the Department together with the enhancement of the revenue collecting machinery will bring additional revenue to the Department.

VOTE 13:  SOCIAL WELFARE.

In 1997/98, an amount of R3,354,043 million was allocated to Social Welfare.  For the 1998/99 financial year, a total sum of R3,986,000 million has been allocated to Social Welfare, representing an increase of 18,8 percent over the 1997/98 figure.  The 1998/99 allocation, which also represents a 1,8 percent less than the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98 and about 10,8 percent less than the requested budget for 1998/99, has been influenced by both the national directives and provincial policy priority.  It is expected that the cleaning up of the Administration of social security of fraud and abuse will bring in substantial savings to the Department.

VOTE 14:  WORKS.

For the 1998/99 financial year, an amount of R243,324 million has been allocated to Works.  In relation to the requested budget, this allocation represents a reduction of 61,4 percent.  In relation to the projected actual expenditure in 1997/98, however, the 1998/99 allocation represents a reduction of 63,8 percent.  The sharp decline in the allocation to Works is due to the fact that the 1998/99 provision does not include the budgeted capital expenditures of other departments, which have to be budgeted for by the departments themselves from their own allocations.

TABLING OF DOCUMENTS.

Mr Speaker, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa compels us to spend money that has been appropriated by an Act of Parliament.  At the same time the Legislature is charged with the important function of overseeing the actions of the Executive.  In order, therefore, to balance these requirements, it is necessary to put before this House an Interim Appropriation Bill.  The purpose of this Bill is to appropriate money for the interim requirements of the Province in respect of the financial year ending 31 March 1999, until such time as the Appropriation Act, 1998, has been promulgated.  Mr Speaker, I therefore table the Interim Appropriation Bill, 1998.

Furthermore, I table the Estimates for Revenue and Expenditure for the financial year ending 31 March 1999, together with schedules pertaining to the MTEF figures for the 1999/2000 and 2000/2001 financial years.

Mr Speaker, I also table the MTEF document for the Province as well as the Appropriation Bill for the 1998/99 financial year.

CONCLUSION.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I must be the first to admit that there is no joy in this budget which I have just proposed, as well as the accompanying economic policies that I have announced.  It is indeed an austerity budget, a budget which calls upon all the spending agencies of the Government to be more efficient in and economical with the usage of public resources placed at their disposal.  The budget proposals and the accompanying economic policies have been designed to establish a framework for a leaner, efficient and effective Government.  We do not as yet have a tool to actually effect these objectives.  It will take the Department of the Public Service at National level, to provide such a tool.

Mr Speaker, it should be reiterated that the fiscal constraints prevent us from unlocking and overcoming the social and economic backlogs facing us; they reduce our ability to complete ongoing projects and limit our resolve to embark upon new socio-economic investments.  This curtails our responsibility for effective maintenance of existing infrastructure.

We sincerely know and appreciate the needs of our people, but whatever we would like to do is constrained by resources allocated to us.

We are only able to do what we can within scarce resources and policy considerations.  Even what might be considered priority projects cannot pass the uncontrollable fiscal hurdle.  The solution to this lamentably is not within the Provincial Government's control, as I have just said.  We as the Government of KwaZulu-Natal remain ready to be part of a sustainable solution.

Mr Speaker, while I recognise that the budget I have proposed today is extremely tight, we have very limited options, except to tighten all expenditure controls, exercise openness and be highly accountable.

We need, therefore, to pull ourselves out of this financial flux, or fix, by our own bootstraps.  This is not the time for departments, organisations, or individuals to clinch to their rights of entitlement, or to say, "But I was not part of the problem".  Instead, it is time for each one of us - Ministers, legislators, civil servants, business, labour, and the community itself, to attempt to answer the simple question, "How can I help?"

We must not forget the fact that if we join our hands together we will succeed.  On the other hand, if we allow ourselves to be divided for petty personal gains, we are doomed forever.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, permit me now to thank my colleagues in the Cabinet and Budget Council, for their co-operation, understanding and support that they have extended to the Government during this year.  I also thank the Deputy Director-General of Treasury, Mr Shabalala, and his officials, and the Budget Team for the exceptional work that they have done in putting the budget together.

Before I finish, I must just announce to my colleagues that I have decided that Minister Miller will take over the portfolio of Finance as from 1 April.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  This is necessitated by the need, and it is an urgent need, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, for me to try and co-ordinate the spending departments, Education, Health and Social Welfare, very closely, and of course, to also work with the other Ministries to see how we can live through this budget.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE PREMIER:  I do hope that all my colleagues, our bankers, our business fraternity, will assist and support Minister Miller in the same manner that they have supported and assisted me.

I would like to thank the Regional Economic Forum, the organised business and, of course, community organisations, for the understanding and support that they have given me during this year.

Finally, I thank all of you here for your presence and support of the Government of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  May God bless all of you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  There will be a Press conference in the IFP caucus room, on the second floor of this building, and of course, there will be a finger-lunch for our visitors.  Together we shall win.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  [APPLAUSE]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  As you are aware, I will not interfere with the clapping of hands, it only indicates one thing, support for your speech.

We have now heard from the Premier and I therefore refer the KwaZulu-Natal Appropriation Bill and the estimate budgets to the Portfolio Committee on Finance.  There has, however, been a Bill tabled, the Interim Bill, tabled by the Premier, and on that one, I would like to take my guidelines from the Chief Whip.

KWAZULU-NATAL INTERIM APPROPRIATION BILL, 1998.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the Interim Appropriation Bill was tabled today.  Somehow there was the expectation that it was not going to be dealt with today, but that is why it was omitted from the Order Paper.  We would need, by unanimous agreement of the House, that this Bill can be proceeded with.  It is largely a technical measure, and I am sure there can be no real problems with it.  So I would request, firstly, Mr Speaker, that we get the agreement of the House to proceed with the Bill, and then, secondly, perhaps each party would like just to say a few short words on it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  This is a proposal by the Chief Whip.

MR A RAJBANSI:  May I suggest that we waive Rule 133 in order to accommodate this urgent situation, because we are having too many oversights.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Rule 133, there is a proposal by Mr Rajbansi to waive Rule 133, which deals with the referral of a Bill to a Portfolio Committee.  Dr Sutcliffe?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, could I just get clarity from the Chief Whip on this matter, because our understanding was that we were coming back next week, and usually a Bill like this would be tabled the day before and dealt with the next day.  While it is a technical Bill and fairly straightforward, it is a bit difficult that we just look at it immediately.  This is the first time we have had sight of it.  Are we coming back next week for another session, or not, and if not, is there not a mechanism we could do there, because those of us on the Finance Committee, I mean, this is the first sight we have of this Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Chief Whip, can I have your response?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am not aware of any meeting of the House that has been arranged for next week.  There was some talk that the House may have to meet to discuss the additional Appropriation Bill, but we cannot discuss it in this House until it has been dealt with by NCOP in Cape Town, that is perhaps where that idea originated.  The sitting of this House is entirely dependent upon the Interim Appropriation Bill being passed by the NCOP in Cape Town.  So there is no sitting of this House next week.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  I crave your indulgence. In the light of the answers given, and in view of the fact that our administration might come to a halt on 1 April, the only way we can deal with this Bill today in a spirit of co-operation, is just to waive Rule 133, and I propose that we waive Rule 133, it is a straightforward matter.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi has moved the waiving of Rule 133.  Can I get a supporter for that?

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Yes, Mr Speaker, I would like to support the proposal by the hon Mr Rajbansi.  I would also further like to support the Chief Whip that we pass this Bill today, because it is a straightforward Bill, so that we can get paid at the end of the month. [LAUGHTER]

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, from our side, we also support that this matter be dealt with now.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order please.  Firstly, I hope that was what is called transparency, but can I also give you, Mr Schutte, a chance to say what you are saying?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, from our side we also support the fact that this measure be dealt with now.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, we support that the matter be discussed now and handled today.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, we support that this Bill be dealt with, otherwise there will be a problem as mentioned by my colleague, Mr Ngidi.   [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mrs Downs?

MRS J M DOWNS:  We support that the Bill be dealt with today.

RULE 133 SUSPENDED.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  In that case, Rule 133 therefore is waived and the Interim Appropriation Bill of KwaZulu-Natal is now being tabled and dealt with.  Can I have an indication from parties to speak, Mr Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the IFP, we support the Bill and we move that it be adopted by the House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There has been a mover for the Bill to be adopted by the House.  Mr Ngidi?

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, as indicated earlier, and for the reason I put earlier, we support the Bill.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  National Party, anybody who wants to speak on that?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, Mr Speaker, the Minority Front supports the Bill, not for the reasons mentioned by my colleague of the ANC, but we are concerned about the general, shall I say, Public Service.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, we have pleasure in supporting the measure which will have its existence until passing of the main Appropriation at the end of May.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, the National Party will also support the Bill.  The percentages, I assume, are the same as they were last year, and for that reason we support it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mrs Downs?

MRS J M DOWNS:  The ACDP supports the Bill.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: [Mr Speaker, sir, the PAC supports this Bill, so that the wheels continue with oil].  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, the Bill has been unanimously supported for passing.  I therefore rule that the Bill is now passed.  Dr Sutcliffe?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, it might be useful, before you put the Bill, just to ensure that we waive any other Bills, because this Bill was not actually formally introduced by the Premier, and there does not appear to be a memorandum.  I suggest that we also waive the other necessary rules, not only 133.  I suggest you put that to the House and ensure that there is unanimity before we actually put the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  In terms of the Rule relating to Money Bills, the Premier has not introduced the Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I stick to this procedure, can I stick to this procedure?  I will now put the Bill to the House after the contributions from all the parties.

KWAZULU-NATAL INTERIM APPROPRIATION BILL, 1998 - PASSED 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We have now therefore come to the conclusion of our item 8.2 on the Order Paper.  It seems to me that we have come to the end of the Order Paper and the business of the House.  Just a correction, I will request the Secretary to read the short title of the Interim Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Interim Appropriation Bill 1998.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Secretary.  I therefore request the Premier to make whatever announcements there are.

THE PREMIER:  I have no announcements until next time we meet.  I do hope that we can meet late next week, or very early the following week.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  I hope that the Chief Whip has taken care of that and that the other Whips are also aware of that.

This concludes our business for the day.  I therefore adjourn this House sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12:29 SINE DIE    

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	FIRST SITTING - FIFTH SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 26 MARCH 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:04 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER ~ULUNDI~, THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  I had almost asked the Secretary if we have a quorum.  But I see the members now coming in.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATIONS

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  I have to take this opportunity to acknowledge in our presence the hon Ambassador of Poland, Her Excellency, Mrs Zofia Kuratowska.  Thank you, madam, I hope you will excuse me for the wrong pronunciation of your surname.  [LAUGHTER]  We are blessed to have you amongst us.  I have been in Poland once.  We visited Poland at one stage, and therefore it is a pleasure for me to welcome such an important visitor from Poland.  As Your Honour pleases.  Thank you.

The next announcement I have to make.  I received here, timeously, a request from the African National Congress, where they require to move a motion, and this motion reads as follows:

	That this House debates the claims made in the Sunday Tribune of 22 March 1998 that the hon Arthur Konigkramer was allegedly a paid spy of the old SAP Special Branch and that he allegedly also spied on the IFP President, Mangosuthu Buthelezi, for another intelligence agency.

	And that this House further debates the various responses to these claims as reported in the media.


In terms of Rule 101:

	(1)	A private Member, may on any sitting day request the Speaker in writing (which has happened) to allow a matter of urgent public importance to be discussed by this House.

	(2)	The request shall be made to the Speaker before 12:00 on days when this House sits at 14:15 or at least one hour prior to the time appointed for a sitting at an earlier or later time.  

	(3)	If the Speaker grants the request, the presiding officer shall announce it in this House, and debate on the matter shall stand over until the time appointed by the presiding officer.

I have applied my mind to this matter, which came in time, for consideration, so it will enable me to exercise my prerogative in terms of 101 (3).  I have read out this matter and it has to do with matters that appeared somewhere about, before 1994, really, when this matter came up.  It is no news to the Press and it is no news for a number of people.  In any case, the matter was discussed here the other day when such allegations were made.  My ruling is that there is no urgency on this matter.  Importance is there, but there is no urgency on this matter.  I therefore rule that we cannot discuss it at this stage.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

THE SPEAKER:  May I take this opportunity to take exception to Mr Makhaye's reaction.  It is in fact an insult to the Chair, if I make an announcement and you make remarks and giggle as you are doing. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  I think I take exception to that.  I think it is a question of disrespect to the Chair, and this House, and you, and you alone, has taken this upon yourself to do that.  I am not concerned about what he always does, but I am concerned about what he is doing now.  I take exception to that.  If it was a long sitting I would have asked you to leave the House, but I am not going to do so.  I want to record it that Mr Makhaye behaved himself in a very unseemly manner, which is not consistent with the dignity of this House, nor for a member of his calibre.  So much for that.  We therefore proceed.

Having acknowledged the presence of the Polish Ambassador, Her Excellency, and I think it would do us better if Mr Makhaye left the House, on his own, he is not being chased out.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

THE SPEAKER:  No announcements.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member - oh yes, I think the lady - ladies first.  Let us teach some of us that old adage.  As your lady pleases?

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I shall move at the next sitting of this House that:

	Noting that there does not appear to be a register of school violence at neither the Provincial nor National level, and that the South African Police Services do not separate house break-ins from school break-ins or differentiate the other categories, such as assault or rape in terms of schools.  

	Many learners and educators are regularly subjected to violence and trauma resulting from intimidation, theft, assault, rape, vandalism and other serious problems that undermine efforts to bring up children in a normal, secure environment.

	This House calls upon the Ministers of Education and of Safety and Security to initiate measures to categorize the above.

	In view of the severity of this issue, together with the financial constraints a formula be established to curb the indiscipline experienced at these Educational Institutions.  

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon Mr Ngidi, please?

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I give notice that on the next sitting of this House, I will move as follows: 

	1.	noting that in its last sitting, this House failed to pass the KwaZulu-Natal Mini-bus Taxi Interim Bill;

	2.	the urgent necessity of this Bill has been clearly demonstrated by the tensions between the Bhekithemba and GwaMnyandu Taxi Associations, which almost resulted in a violent conflagration.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please!

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  

	3.	this House is on record having committed itself to the eradication of violence in this Province.

	THEREFORE RESOLVES that we dedicate ourselves in ensuring that all impediments to having this Bill passed in the time period agreed to in the last sitting of this House are removed.  

	That we do so to empower this Government to be able to deal with Taxi violence once and for all.  

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Ngidi.  Any further notices of motion, Mr Dlamini?

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move as follows:

	That this House:

	noting that a Child Care Support Programme shall be implemented with effect from the 1st of February 1998;

	noting that the objective of the Poverty Allocation Policy is to reach as many under-privileged children as possible.

	Further noting that only 3% of the recipients of the State Maintenance Grant being phased out, were African children;

	believing that unless African communities in particular, are educated on the Child Care Support Programme, the majority of the indigent will miss the opportunity.

	Therefore resolve that:

	Community awareness campaigns be initiated by the Ministry of Welfare and Population Development; 

	That clear protocol and procedures for applying for the benefit be made known;

	That bureaucratic red-tape be reduced to the minimum.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Dlamini.  Any further motions?   

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

	that this House warmly welcomes the hon Mr Bill Clinton, President of the United States of America, and his wife Hillary, in our country and wish them an informative, happy and productive stay in South Africa.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Ina, for that, thank you very much.  Any further motions?  I will therefore proceed to No. 8. 

8.	ORDER OF THE DAY:

8.1	THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENT ESTIMATE BILL, 1998.

THE SPEAKER:  I call upon Mr Miller, for and on behalf of the Premier.  Mr Miller?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, if I may just make my position clear today.  I am not yet the Provincial MEC, charged with Finance and Auxiliary Services.  That will not be the case until the paperwork is done.  However, I am charged with this responsibility today by the hon Premier, who is required to be in Cape Town on official duty, by virtue of his required presence at meetings with our distinguished guests from the United States.

Secondly, sir, I wish to commence my introduction by indicating, in terms of Rule 131 (4), of the Rules of this hon House, that the member of the Executive Council responsible for this matter, does recommend and support the introduction of this Bill.  That is merely for the record, and it is necessary in terms of that Rule of this House, that either in writing, or verbally, as I have just done, that that recommendation be recorded.

THE SPEAKER:  Noted.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  In formally introducing the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, Mr Speaker, hon members will remember that on the 19th of May 1997, the estimated revenue and expenditure for the 1997/98 financial year for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, were presented to this House.  It is my pleasure today to stand before this hon House on behalf of the MEC for finance to present to you the Adjustments Estimates for the year ending 31 March 1998.

Mr Speaker, the purpose for the submission of the Adjustment Estimates is to request the Provincial Legislature to consider requests for funds in addition to funds already appropriated in the Main Estimate.

These requests for additional funds are measured against the requirements of Section 1 of the KwaZulu-Natal Exchequer Act, 1994, which specifies that requests be limited to:

1.	The shifting of funds between programmes within votes and between votes;

2.	The re-appropriation of money for services of the Province in respect of which no or insufficient monies have been appropriated in the relevant financial year and which may only be appropriated subject to the stipulations in the Act;

3.	Any other change or adjustment to an Appropriation Act which applies in the relevant financial year and which the Treasury deems necessary;

4.	The re-appropriation of money, which was appropriated in the preceding financial year, but was not spent;

5.	Other adjustments that the Treasury may deem necessary.

Today marks the day on which we have to assess in earnest our financial performance during the financial year that we are now concluding.  The best way of doing that is perhaps to remind ourselves of the commitments we made when we adopted the budget that we seek this hon House to adjust.

Mr Speaker, allow me to reflect briefly on some of the events and developments that have taken place since the 1997/98 Budget was tabled in this House on the 19 March 1997.

I would like to deal firstly with the budget deficit.

THE BUDGET DEFICIT

Before I proceed to outline the issue of the current deficit and the state of expenditure, please allow me to give this House some background as to the causes of such anticipated over-expenditure and the areas that are affected.  The Province of KwaZulu-Natal identified and reported a potential shortfall in the 1997/98 budget allocation to the Province in July 1997.

I must also record, of course, that many of the members of this hon House, in their budget speeches, in May last year, predicted this shortfall without having to wait for any figures to prove it.

The current projected shortfall amounts to approximately R1,951 billion and is attributable mainly to personnel costs in the Departments of Education and Health and the payment of social grants.

Eighty percent of the projected shortfall occurs in two areas:

1.	Personnel related expenditure, which is governed by National agreements and contractual commitments.

2.	The payment of social grants, which is governed by legislative requirements.

The remaining 20 percent is attributable to a number of other areas, which include:

	-	The absence of staff in critical posts in several departments;

	-	Un- or under-funded national mandates with respect to norms and standards of service delivery levels;

	-	Fraud and corruption; and

	-	Ineffective or inadequate management processes and financial controls.

To a large extent, provincial expenditure is prescribed in law and agreements, and only a small part is supply driven.  Currently, about 90 percent of the Provincial expenditure, including wages and salaries, improvement in conditions of service, social grants, etcetera, are outside the control of the Provincial authorities, either because these expenditures are prescribed in laws passed by the National Government or reached in agreements at national level.  In either event, there is little or no flexibility in the short term in reducing these costs without changes in the laws and agreements governing these expenditures, or the design of the programmed transfers.

In addition to the above issues, it is recognised by the Ministry of Finance in the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement produced in the latter quarter of 1997, that the provincial equitable shares between the nine provinces requires adjustment over a phase-in period in order to achieve equity.  Mr Speaker, we certainly do not at this moment in time, have equity in the division of income between the nine provinces.  The Financial and Fiscal Commission has taken this matter up in its recent report and has suggested that this is one of the issues that will have to be addressed if budget shortfalls are to be eliminated.

The budget deficit of the Province is currently being addressed by way of a combination of seeking bridging finance and funding by the National Treasury in terms of the funding made available in the 1997/98 Adjustments Estimates at National level.  To this end it was proposed in the National Adjustments Estimates to set aside a maximum of R1,5 billion "to assist those provinces who have problems".  Given the fact that the amount available is only R1,5 billion and has to be shared by the provinces, this Province has applied for an amount of R900 million.

In requesting the National Parliament to approve of this amount whilst at the same time satisfying the commitments to balance budgets and fiscal discipline, the Central Government proposed that the amount be provided subject to Section 100 (1)(a) of the Constitution.  The transfer of such funds is, therefore, dependent upon finalisation of an agreement that is currently being negotiated between the Provincial and National Government.  The officials of the Provincial and National Treasuries have come to a point where the agreement is ready to be signed.  I shall be seeing a copy of that agreement this afternoon.  Such signing can, however, only take place once the 1997/98 National Adjustment Estimates has been finalised.

We are aware, Mr Speaker, of the delays in the National Council of Provinces and they have met to finalise the Adjustment Estimates on Tuesday of this week, in Cape Town.

Mr Speaker, it is against this extremely difficult background that the Cabinet of this Province, approved the introduction of a comprehensive plan to enhance performance in November 1997.  The objectives and processes to be adopted by the Performance Enhancement Plan have been outlined in the Document that was tabled by the Premier, together with his 1998 Budget Speech.

THE 1997/98 ADJUSTMENTS

At this stage, Mr Speaker, I wish to look at each vote, stating the overall increase or decrease, and to mention the significant movements attributable to these increases or decreases.




THE DEPARTMENT OF THE PREMIER

This Department reflects an overall increase of R5,078 million due to the following:

-	An increase of R5,435 million in respect of the transfer of the Gaming and Betting function from the Provincial Department of Finance to the Department of the Premier. 

PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT

Provincial Parliament has an overall decrease due to the transfer of R0,713 million to the Department of Works for renovations to the Parliamentary buildings in Pietermaritzburg.

THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

This Department reflects a decrease of R47,6 million in respect of the Forestry Function, which was transferred to the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry at National level.

THE DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND TOURISM

This Department reflects an increase of R0,919 million due to the following significant movements:

-	an increase of R0,323 million allocated to the Regional Development Strategies from the now abolished Central Economic Advisory Service; and

-	an increase of R0,57 million, resulting from a devolution of the Justice Function.

THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE

This Department reflects an increase of R221,722 million, due to the following significant movements:

-	an increase of R2,167 million transferred from the National Department of Education for purposes of Curriculum 2005.

-	a net decrease of R132,362 million, as a result of movements between the Department of Works and the Departments of Education and Culture.

-	an increase of R351,917 million, representing an additional allocation to be funded from the special provincial allocation of R900 million.

THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE AND AUXILIARY SERVICES

This Department reflects an overall decrease of R56,118 million, represented by the following significant movements:

-	a decrease of R5,435 million, transferred to the Department of the Premier, in respect of the Gaming and Betting function; and

-	a decrease of R50,683 million, surrendered to the Provincial Revenue Account in respect of funds for the servicing of loans not being paid by the Province.

THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH

This Department reflects an overall increase of R370,42 million, represented by the following:

-	an increase of R39,812 million, made available by National Health for the New Durban Academic Hospital.

-	an increase of R2,205 million for Parasite Control.

-	an increase of R293,028 million, representing an additional allocation to be funded from the special provincial allocation of R900 million.

-	an increase of R2,09 million, allocated by the Baby Friendly Initiative and the AIDS Prevention Campaign.

THE DEPARTMENT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING

This Department reflects an overall increase of R1,387 million, represented by:

	an increase of R1,437 million in respect of the staff devolved from the Justice Function; 

	a decrease of R0,136 million, transferred to the Department of Works in respect of running costs and personnel for four water tankers.

THE SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICES

This vote represents a decrease of R1,401 million, identified as savings.

THE PROVINCIAL SERVICE COMMISSION

The Provincial Service Commission reflects an increase of R644,05 million, represented by:
 
	a decrease of R3,077 million, identified as savings, surrendered to the Provincial Revenue Account;  

	and an increase of R647,127 million for improvement and conditions of service in respect of all votes, which are simply being placed here for purposes of appropriation.

This is really just a book entry.  The Provincial Service Commission never touched, or had access to any of that money.

THE DEPARTMENT OF TRADITIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS

This Department reflects an overall increase of R1,985 million, represented by:

n	an increase of R1,799 million, in respect of staff devolved from the Justice Function; 

n	an increase of R0,277 million, transferred from the Department of the Premier in respect of the transfer of personnel.

THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

This Department reflects an overall increase of R48,483 million, represented by the following significant movements:

-	an increase of R45 million, as per Cabinet Resolution No 218, dated 28 May 1997, to finance Community Access Roads.  This increase is as a result of the increase in license fees by 25 percent; and

-	an increase of R3,743 million, representing funds transferred from National in respect of the Local Road Transportation Boards/Road Transport Industry.

THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE

This Department reflects an overall increase of R297,343 million, represented by:

-	an increase of R40 million for increases in Social Grants appropriated via a Supplementary Estimate by the National Department of Finance; and

-	an increase of R255,055 million, representing an additional allocation which will be funded from the special provincial allocation of R900 million.

Last, but not least,

THE DEPARTMENT OF WORKS

This Department reflects an overall increase of R228,083 million, represented by:

-	an increase of R132,423 million, transferred by the Department of Education and Culture for capital works.

-	an increase of R187 million attributable to funds committed by the National Department of Health for the New Durban Academic Hospital; and

-	a decrease of R60 million for funds surrendered to the Provincial Revenue Account in respect of the ~Ulundi~ Complex, not to be completed in this financial year.

PROMOTING THE RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME

This vote reflects and increase of R14 million for the Provincial Discretionary Fund.  This amount represents the unspent balance as at the end of the 1996/97 financial year and was a conditional grant allocated by the National Government.

We turn now to:

THE SOURCE OF FUNDING

A total amount of R1,665,216 million was received from the National Exchequer, while an amount of R62,422 million was funded from surplus funds in the Provincial Revenue Account.

CONCLUSION

In conclusion then, these are the changes that have occurred during the financial year under review which led to the requirement of an additional R1,727,638 million.

Mr Speaker, it is therefore my pleasure to table, at this stage, the Adjustments Estimates Bill, 1998 and the Adjustments Estimate Book, in terms of Section 4(5)(b) of the KwaZulu-Natal Exchequer Act, Act No 1 of 1994, read with Rule 132(a) of the Standing Rules of the Provincial Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal.  I formally table and ask that this be placed on the Secretary's desk.

Mr Speaker, before I resume my seat, may I say that we find ourselves in somewhat unusual circumstances, in that we are simply a day or two away from the end of the financial year.  In the normal course of events, this Bill would have been tabled considerably earlier than it has been.  It would then have followed the normal procedure of going from here to the Portfolio Committee for the normal procedures that such a Portfolio Committee then puts into place.

This year we find ourselves in the situation where, because we could not handle this Bill, until the National Appropriation Adjustments had been made, and that was only completed on Tuesday, that we find ourselves in the situation of extreme time constraint.  It is to be hoped therefore, that when I resume my seat, that you, Mr Speaker, will be in a position to adjourn the House, refer the Bill to the Portfolio Committee on Finance and that we can immediately deliberate on the content of the Bill, before returning to the House for the onward consideration of the Bill in terms of the legislative process.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.


THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Miller, for setting out the procedure to be followed.  At this stage I call upon the messengers to deliver to each member, in the House, the Bill which Mr Miller has put forward.  Then, thereafter, when that has happened, I will adjourn the House for at the most 30 minutes, in the hope that this Bill will be referred to the Portfolio Committee, shall deal with the Bill and report to the House thereafter, and the procedure will then be followed thereafter.

May I see this Bill being given to the members.  The Minister has tabled the Bill now.  The members have it.  Thank you very much.  I do not want to come across a situation where the members feel that they cannot, at the plenary stage, deal with this matter, because the Bill was never in their possession.  I am glad therefore it is already in their possession.  Thank you very much for that.  I will therefore adjourn this house for 30 minutes for that to happen.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 10:40
	RESUMED AT 11:46

THE SPEAKER:  At this stage, may I request the report from the Portfolio Committee, please.  Yes, Mr Makhaye?

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Speaker, I table the Finance Portfolio Committee report on the Adjustments Appropriation Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  At this stage, the report has been received, I will call on the Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would like to move without notice in terms of Rule 104 (g) that the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimate Bill be placed on the Order Paper for the plenary stage and immediate debate.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the ANC will support the motion without notice, in view of the urgency of the matter, we are fully aware of that.  We would, however, have liked more time to consider it properly, but, as I say, we do understand the urgency, and therefore we will support it.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Great minds think alike and fools never differ.  Yes, Mr Haygarth?

MR G HAYGARTH:  The National Party will also support that, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Yes?

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party will support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, the PAC will support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We should have unanimous support of the motion.  We will therefore proceed to the plenary stage.  Therefore the Bill is on the table now before the House in terms of the request by the Chief Whip.  I accordingly request that the debate proceeds.  We are in the plenary stage now, are we not?  I have not got the speakers here.  I am sorry, I did not have this list here.  Here we are.  The IFP Minister, Mr Miller is the first one to address the House unlimitedly.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, just on a point of order, the speaker's list for the parties has not yet been distributed to the House, and I believe that should be done.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much for that, because I was not too sure whether this is the one here, or not. 

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the speaker's lists were prepared, they were given to staff, the list should be in front of you now.  The first speaker should be the Portfolio Committee Chairperson.

THE SPEAKER:  The Portfolio Committee Chair?  According to this one, that is Thursday, 26 March, KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimates Bill.  Parties - IFP, Mr Miller, speaker unlimited and then the ANC, Mr Makhaye, Chairperson.  Yes?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I must support the hon Mr Edwards.  I know that the speaker's list has definitely been prepared by the Whips, but that is where our responsibility ends, and there is no speaker's list in front of the members and they should have the speaker's list.

THE SPEAKER:  I do not seem to know where I am now.  I have got this list here which is supposed to be the speaker's list, whereupon I would be calling upon the acting Minister of Finance, to address the House.  Thereafter, in terms of the list in front of me, I will proceed with the Minister of Finance. 

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, my contribution is going to be very simple, because I have already delivered a comprehensive address this morning.  It remains only then for me to indicate, as the acting Minister, I obviously support the adoption of the report that I believe is positive from the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, and leave it to him to introduce the debate which I will then reply to.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Makhaye, in that event, I am afraid I have got to stop you from the discussion you are having, and ask you to address the House on the Bill.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Speaker, the Finance Portfolio Committee met today, the 26th of March 1998, to consider the Adjustments Appropriation Bill.  Having considered the Bill thoroughly, the Committee unanimously supported the Bill.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Brevity is the sole of wit and for not being long-winded, I thank you.  In terms of the list, I now call upon Mr Mzobe to address the House for 10 minutes.  Yes?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Sorry to interrupt again, but we still do not have the speaker's lists.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh no.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I understand that the IFP do have the speaker's list and I do find it rather unfair that this side of the House does not have the speaker's list.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Let us hold the proceedings for the moment until that has happened.  Mr Secretary, please ask the clerks to supply that list which I have here.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Please, progress please, let us have these supplied to all the members on my left-hand side, please.  I do not see any activity towards supplying the lists at all.  I am sorry, I am informed it is being done.  I apologise for the fact that this is holding up the proceedings.  This should have been done earlier on.  I do not know why this happened, but nevertheless, I must offer my apology.  My staff has not done that, they are busy photostatting it again.  I am sorry for that.  Will this section of the House assure me that they now have the list - J J has not got it, that is pretty bad.  I am sure we may now proceed.  Anybody who has not got the list yet?  I take it everybody has got the list.  We now proceed.

At this stage I must call upon Mr Mzobe to address the House for 10 minutes at this plenary stage.  The hon Mr Mzobe?

MR M R MZOBE:  Mr Speaker, hon members of the Provincial Legislature, it is a fact of nature, that when two elephants are fighting it is the grass that suffers.  

It is common knowledge that there is a vast distinction between opening and closing a water tank than tampering with the country's economy.

Mr Speaker, before the 1994 Provincial and National elections the social, political and economic situation in our Country was so chaotic that our brothers across the road and their alliance, wittingly or unwittingly called for sanctions and disinvestments to be imposed against South Africa ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M R MZOBE:  Hence, many people lost their jobs.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR M R MZOBE:  Since then the economic graph has gone down to such an extent that we are today caught up in the most unprecedented financial crisis.  

Mr Speaker, one more factor that contributes to our problems is the fact that the norms and the standards reside with the National Parliament which sometimes reaches the Provinces very late.  The last budgetary word remains with the Central Legislature.

Because of the previous Administration, the country is faced with a debt of R201 billion, R42 billion of which is foreign debt.  The whole country is faced with unemployment which has resulted in corruption, armed bank robberies and pension heists, which are part of our financial predicament.

Mr Speaker, in order that business could continue unauthorised expenditure had to take place.  For that reason, I support the proposed Adjustment Appropriation Bill.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Mzobe.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Wait a minute, you are not the grass, are you?  [LAUGHTER]  Shall we proceed, please.  Mr Haygarth, please?

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, the problems that we have had with the budget I think, are well known.  The Provincial Executive or Cabinet has done all in their power to remedy the situation, both by ensuring an increase in the allocation to the provinces, and, at the same time, endeavouring to restructure the expenditure programmes of the departments concerned.

The effect of the deficit which we have suffered in the last year, has made it quite clear that no provinces, no local authorities, are going to continue to be allowed to over-spend.  Minister Manuel made it quite clear at the NCOP hearing on Tuesday that the Government would not bail out Provincial or Local Governments that live beyond their means, or fail to collect the revenue due to them.  He said that the amount of R1,5 billion that was being made available to provinces would cover the irredeemable revenue gaps caused maybe by the unexpected growth in the rate of spending and the three year.....

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon member make quite sure that his microphone is functioning.  There we are.

MR G HAYGARTH:  The new year, however, Mr Speaker, is going to be one fraught with a great deal of challenge.  The amounts that are going to have to be saved on our Provincial spending are enormous, and the Province has seen fit to produce the Performance Enhancement Plan to enable the Cabinet and the departments concerned, to exercise initiatives and to produce a satisfactory answer for the year to come.

Two important issues are raised in that document.  The first one is that it cannot be achieved overnight and we, as Provincial Legislature, need to acknowledge that, it has to be a phased programme and in that programme they envisage a short term, medium term and long term basis of adjustment, which will take some 18 months to achieve.

The second thing is, and this is the most important one, that there is a need for a political will to match the departments' requirements and the Cabinet's support thereof, in decision-making, which has very important impacts on the total expenditure of this Province and the impact on people, on the standards, and we need to ensure that the public are well informed on what this really means.  The public have become dissatisfied with the performance statistics, they read about the amount of losses, the amount of corruption that takes place, and these have to be severely dealt with.  It will be the policy of the Committee to endeavour to ensure that these are adequately being dealt with, that savings are in fact being achieved.

With this background, Mr Speaker, the National Party supports the proposal before the House.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Nel, please, for three minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, in the three minutes I can address myself only to the essentials.  We have debated the under-funding, we have debated mismanagement, we have debated fraud and unproductivity, all of which have led to the over-expenditure of R1,9 billion.

We, in the Democratic Party, originally opposed the budget last May, for reasons which we argued at the time, but we must record that in the course of the year, and particularly now towards the end, some of our original objections have in fact been addressed by a force of circumstance, in other words, some of the mis-allocated monies have been redirected to other areas that we found more acceptable.

We also see now, at the end of this financial year and entering the next, that there are very firm commitments, both for example, from the MEC's and the departmental secretaries, to actually ensure that it does not happen again.  I am sure that there are many members in this House that will help to make sure that heads roll if indeed it is allowed to happen again.

We now come to the Adjustment Estimate before us.  We have over-spent, it is a fact, and we must now act to regularise it.  National Government offers us R900m to address the unavoidable over-expenditures, and a further R600m as a bridging loan to finance the R1,9b.  Then finally, the Province has seen fit to put aside R426m of the 1998/99 budget to repay some of the over-expenditure of the current year now ending.

Sir, we think that is about the only practical arrangement.  Of course the National money is only conditional upon our acceptance of this Adjustment Estimate, so we have little choice in the matter.  Might I say, that we can also only approve the Adjustment Estimate on the understanding that National Government has in fact committed to their undertakings, which are about to be signed.

For those reasons, we would support this Estimate.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  I notice that Mr Rajbansi is not available.  Mr Mkhwanazi, please?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the PAC supports this very necessary and urgent Bill.  We would, however, make one or two comments.  While we do understand and sympathise with the Minister, finding himself in this situation, we do hope that in the next year, this will not be a recurring decimal.

We also want to appeal to all the people of this Province to work together and understand that this is our problem.  We do not agree with those who say the shortage of money is as a result of sanctions.  The sanctions, we must admit, assisted to bring about the liberation of this Province.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please!

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  What we perhaps are overlooking is that the loaf is the same, or less as it was when the loaf was only taking care of five million of the 40 million people in this country.  Therefore, now that we are trying to share the loaf, definitely the slices are becoming smaller.  What we need to do is to increase the loaf of bread, so that we can increase the slices.  We therefore support the Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Order please!  Order please!  I did not expect that a speech of one minute 58 seconds would have turned this House upside down.  But be that as it may, it is now my pleasure, in the absence of Mrs Downs, to call upon Mr Aulsebrook to address the House for 11 minutes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, I do not think I will be taking my full 11 minutes, but I certainly would like to take this opportunity, rather maybe prematurely, but I would certainly like to congratulate Minister Peter Miller being about to be appointed Minister of Finance.  We certainly on this side of the House, will assure him of our full support in taking on that responsibility.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  I am sure that the Premier, in relinquishing that Ministry, will certainly feel a great relief in that he has carried an extreme burden.  I am sure that he was certainly competent to hold both posts, but it was just a matter of there not being enough hours in the day to deal with both issues.

Mr Speaker, in turning to the Adjustments Estimate Bill which is before us, in essence, this Bill should merely be, as I like to think of it, a fine-tuning of the budget.  At the end of the year, certain over-spends and under-spends are balanced out, one against the other.  This year we seem to find ourselves dealing with a far more serious situation.  I would like to take the House back in order that we can see where our problems originated from.

In the 1994/95 budget, we had the year of dealing with two administrations.  In that year's budget, one of our biggest problems was under-expenditure by certain departments.  Possibly lack of capacity, one reason or another, but they compensated for other departments that over-expended, and we were able, through our Adjustment Estimates, to rectify the situation.  There was also the case of the roll-overs which assisted us.

In moving on to 1995/96, a similar situation existed, and we were able to handle it.  Certainly, to a certain extent, again in 1996/97.  But then, at the beginning of the 1997/98 budget year, the alarm bells were starting to ring.  We then emphasised we wanted zero-based budgeting.  We knew that the departments had now the capacity to start spending their budgets, and departments were now starting to deliver, and that we would not be able to compensate those - not necessarily compensate, but remedy those departments that were over-spending.  Unfortunately, they had got into the habit, and it was not easily remedied.

One can look at all the reasons for over-spending by certain departments.  There were statutory payments that they had to make, a high percentage of their budgets went towards personnel costs, and there are 101 reasons.  At the end of the day we have got to accept that there was a limited amount of money and that they in fact had to operate within that budget.

Some members here today will certainly try and justify that over-expenditure.  We can point fingers at one another in this House, accusingly, but really, we are not going to achieve anything.  We need to be realistic about it and accept the fact that we have a deficit expenditure, we have a cash-flow crisis, and we need to deal with it.

Accusing one another may be, and certainly not necessarily only one another, but outside bodies, like the National, we are not going to find solutions to our problems.  As members of this House, we all need to, to a certain extent, share the blame for what has happened.

Year in and year out, I know at budget time, I tend to harp on the issue of the responsibility that Portfolio Committees need to play in the budgeting process.  Portfolio Committees need to be better informed by departments when drawing up their budgets, and in that sense, become familiar with those budgets, in order that when they are playing a monitoring role, certainly when it comes to expenditure, they can play a far fuller role.

A Portfolio Committee's responsibility also goes beyond just looking at rows and columns of figures, and trying to establish whether it complies with a budget.  They also need to check, and keep a finger on the pulse, as far as performance of the department goes, as well as certainly the delivery.  That is their responsibility to this House and to the public at large.

The 1998/99 budget year is certainly going to be an extremely difficult one for members of this House, as well as the various departments of the Provincial Administration, not just because of the normal financial constraints, but because of the added burden that we will carry from the previous financial year, and that is the issue we are dealing with in these Adjustment Estimates.

I appeal to all members, on various Portfolio Committees, to take their responsibility in those Committees, seriously, when dealing with a budget, familiarise yourselves and carry out all your responsibilities in a manner that is expected of you from the House.  In this way, hopefully, we can bring about a solution to the predicament we find ourselves in.

Mr Speaker, with that, I support this Bill.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now, I will call upon Dr Sutcliffe.  Already one second of your time is taken away. [LAUGHTER]

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, hon Speaker, I will make sure I am well within my time today.  The hon Yusuf Bhamjee has suggested that I should note to the hon MEC of Local Government and Housing, that it is maybe a little bit premature of him claiming he is already Minister of Finance and Auxiliary Services.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I would really like to respond to the first speaker in this debate, the hon Mr Mzobe, around the green grass.  It is true, as you travel through this Province, the grass is not as green as it will be after 1999, when the ANC is firmly in control of this Province.  [LAUGHTER]  Because certainly, in supporting this Adjustments Bill, we must point out that there is at least R1 billion's worth of expenditure that certainly could have been addressed, if we operated timeously.  There is a R400 million swing as a result of poor management.  Instead of making R300m as the Finance Department said last year, in terms of the interest that they would receive on the National grant in particular, we actually have a deficit on that side of over R100 million.  That is a R400 million swing there.

If you take just in the Department of Education, some R250 million was spent on voluntarily severance packages, that was simply not budgeted for, and did not have to be spent there.

If you take the issue of corruption, the known corruption that we have seen, that both Health and Local Government have indicated that they have, but particularly the unknown corruption that the Department of Welfare have reported about, that estimate there, it could be as much as R300 million to R400 million.  And if we have effective control, we would begin to narrow that down.

If we again look at the Department of Finance, there has been a shift there.  They were given R160 million that was supposed to be for the Premier's lead projects.  Almost no money was expended on lead projects, and that Department, in fact, has over-spent by R100 million.

You take that together, and you are talking about just over R1 billion in broad macro terms, that in fact, this Province has spent where decisions could have been made, if there was effective credit control measures, and if there was timeous looking at that information, in ensuring that we nip that situation in the bud.

So certainly this coming year, I think that it has been instructed to all of us.  We are a new, a young democracy, but we must start taking our task of ensuring that there is effective financial control, very seriously this year.

We support this Bill before us, but suggest in the year ahead, we cannot, as a Legislature, tolerate expenditures that have not been properly accounted for.  Thank you, hon Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Dr Sutcliffe, for a two minute 51 seconds' debate.  The hon Mr Miller?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  May I just start by saying, of course, that if the hon Dr Mischief Sutcliffe had been listening when I introduced my debate, I made it quite clear that in fact it was premature to have called me the Minister, and that I was in fact acting on behalf of the Minister of Finance.

AN HON MEMBER:  Are you a doctor?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Very simply, Mr Speaker, in financial terms, we are, to paraphrase Her Majesty the Queen in England, we are going to finish what must be our "annus horribilis" in terms of a financial year.  There can be no doubt that we never again wish to see the financial circumstances which we have all been through as a Legislature and as an Executive.

Let me say that as we view the coming year, what we need is a concerted and united effort by every member of this House to support our representation when it comes to getting fair and equitable funding.  We need the support of every member of this House to address issues of mismanagement and lack of management.  We in particular need the support of every member on the question of fraud and corruption.  We in fact need a united, co-operative approach on matters financial, period.  I trust that that is what the new Minister of Finance can expect to receive.

I do not want to deal with a lot of issues, save to say thank you to all the members who support this necessary Bill today.  Of course, the whole question of the turnaround of interest, I just want to correct a misconception that had we received our annual budget upfront, instead of in twelve tranches, we might have had some money on which to earn interest, which we had experienced in previous years.  The fact of the matter, however, is that the interest earned by revenue collected nationally, is now retained nationally and is credited to the National Government, rather than to any of the subsidiary Governments in the country.

Mr Speaker, it is my pleasure simply then to conclude by saying thank you for the support.  I am sure the hon Premier will be pleased to know that this Bill will shortly become law and to thank all concerned for the spirit in which this particular debate was conducted this morning.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Minister.  It is now my abounding duty to put the Bill before the House, now that the Minister has responded.

THE KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENTS ESTIMATE BILL  -  PASSED

THE SPEAKER:  That disposes of all our work for this day.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  Mr Speaker, some time ago, it was a decision of this hon House that we would not have advertising distributed in this House.  I want to draw your attention to that we now have a commercial firm distributing advertising in the Chamber.  But also, Mr Speaker, on a further point of order, this advertisement purports to be promoting democracy in South Africa, whereas what it is actually promoting is not democracy in our Parliament, it is just promoting the senior member of the Government in power and that is also an abuse I believe, of the position of Government, by the ruling party.  I believe this should be condemned.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Order!  Order please!

MR G S BARTLETT:  It is the ANC, Mr Speaker.  The ANC is spreading a lie that democracy in South Africa consists only of the ANC.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please!

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  On a real point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Mr Bheki Cele hold your horses.  [LAUGHTER]

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, on a real point of order.  In order to dispose of the business, the Secretary should read the Bill into the record.  But that is a real point of order, not this, I do not know what you will call it, but it is certainly not parliamentary.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Ladies and gentlemen, hon members, that ends the business of the day with all the ...

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, I have just said that it does not.  The Secretary has still not read the title.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for reminding me.  Mr Secretary, please read the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  Kwazulu-Natal Adjustments Estimate Bill, 1998.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I should take this opportunity to call upon the Acting Premier to make such announcements as he may have.  Anything from the Cabinet?  Nothing?

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  There is no point of order here.  I have asked the Cabinet if they had any announcements to make, but apparently there is none.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it is a point of order, it is a point of order.  Announcements by the Premier, or the Acting Premier, usually comes at the end of our day's proceedings.  On our Order Paper there is an item, Possible Further Business, and I would like to address you on that item before we go on to the announcements which will conclude our business.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I would have thought that as it is such a fine day and having done such a good job, we would end our business there, notwithstanding the fact that there is possible further business.  There is a whole host of motions here which actually should be dealt with probably today.  I do not know whether it is the feeling of this House that we proceed with the motions.  There are so many of them on the Order Paper.  Is that what the hon member is asking for?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Yes, Mr Speaker, from the ANC's side, we would like our motion debated, that is Motion 9.3.  As is our custom, I did put it to the Whips of the other parties, because obviously, if one can reach agreement, it is all the better.  There is no agreement on us debating our motion, but the Whips are trying to come up with some compromised position whereby we have some debate on the issue of a Commission of Enquiry.  Unfortunately, the previous debate drew to a close rather quickly, and we had to come into the House before we could reach agreement.  May I request that after lunch we report to the House on whether we could reach agreement, and then, with your permission, continue with the debate.

THE SPEAKER:  The problem is, the Whips seem never to come together with a planned way of doing things.  They are throwing the House completely in disarray.  The Whips cannot come to an agreement on a certain definite situation and the whole House is held back because they cannot agree.  I do not think this is the way it should happen.

The second thing again is, normally, we should proceed with the motions as they appear on the Order Paper.  I notice now a request is being made to jump other motions and proceed with 9.3, because the Whips have come together.  I would like the Chief Whip to respond to this.  I do not think we should be confused by the Whips.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think the first point I would like to make is that in terms of what is going to be debated, or if anything should be debated, there is no agreement between the Whips at all on this matter, and I think that what this House deserves is at least some certainty as to what they are going to debate.

But Mr Speaker, having said that, there are a number of motions on this Order Paper, and the previous Order Paper, all which arose out of the debate we had on the wave of crime in the Natal Midlands.  All parties have moved motions relating to this particular issue, of course, the wording differs.

At the last sitting of this House, there was a feeling expressed here that because all parties agreed on the appointment of a commission, that it might be possible for the parties to sit down and agree on the wording of the terms of reference for the commission.  That has not happened, Mr Speaker, and what I believe should happen is that the parties and the movers of the motions, in particular, should, in fact get together, see if they can arrive at common terms of reference, and that then, should be either put to this House, or taken direct to the Cabinet and Premier, who have the authority to appoint a commission in any case.  I would suggest that as it is something that arose out of this House, those parties should get together and at the next sitting of this House, bring something to this House, and the House can then make a decision on the matter.

You see, the debate today, Mr Speaker, is not really whether we should have a commission or not, that is agreed.  I fail to see how we are going to reach agreement on the terms of reference across the floor of this House.  I would request the other parties, that we could get together at some stage in the next few days.  If necessary, the Chief Whips could see that this is convened, and that we could see whether we can thrash out some common terms of reference.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Chief Whip.  Yes?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it is clear that there will be no agreement amongst the different parties.  Therefore, on behalf of the ANC, I respectfully request that after lunch, we debate the ANC Motion, 9.3, on the Order Paper.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  If I may motivate for that, we do not normally proceed with the motions one by one.  There is usually an agreement and we select one or two.  Since we cannot reach an agreement, I am putting a request to you on behalf of the ANC.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Secondly, Mr Speaker, the ANC has acted very responsibly in this matter.  We have not asked for a special sitting that would incur additional costs.  If we continue after lunch, it will not cost this Legislature one extra cent.  We are here, we are assembled, the cost remains the same.

Mr Speaker, this morning you turned down a request from the ANC, which we had accepted as a ruling coming from the Chair.  We are now making a second request to you and there is nothing out of order about it.  It is on the Order Paper as "Possible further business".  As I said, there is no additional cost incurred, we feel that this matter has to be dealt with.

I have a problem with the fact that a can of worms has been opened in this House, not by the ANC, enthusiastically by everybody else.  Now the worms have crawled out and they are trying to push them back into the can.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  So, as I say, to conclude, we respectfully request that after lunch we continue and that we deal with Item 9.3 on the Order Paper.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would like to draw your attention to Rule No 80, which says:

	The Chief Whip of the Majority Party shall, with the agreement of the representatives of the other Parties, arrange all business on the Order Paper...

Mr Speaker, I must inform you that we do not have agreement on this matter and that I would like to formally move that this House should now be adjourned sine die.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I appeal ...

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute, just a minute.  Yes, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the Whips did meet just before we came back into the Chamber and I must support the hon Chief Whip.  I do not believe we will get out and reach consensus on terms of reference.  I think we will be wasting the time of this House if we try and do it now.  I support exactly what the Chief Whip has said.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  That the parties get together in the next few days and we will look at debating this in our next session of Parliament, and I support that.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Edwards.  Yes, Mr Nel?

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I was also present at the Whips meeting, and in fact, lest there be now a misrepresentation of what happened, it was quite clear, unless the Whips were misrepresenting their positions, that no-one was advocating that the worms be shoved back in the can.  The issue was simply as to how to handle the varying suggestions about the appointment of a commission.  And in fact, at the close of the meeting, there was a suggestion, and it was rather hurried, because the business was closing inside the House.  There was the suggestion that there should be an unopposed motion to the effect that the Multi-Party Committee should thrash out a consensus position on terms of reference and report back to this very House at its next sitting, so that the process can continue.  That is what we were expecting here.  Now it seems to me that there is not an unopposed motion.

I would suggest, perhaps as a compromise, we should adjourn for five minutes to try and thrash out that compromise position, because there seemed to have been agreement on it.

THE SPEAKER:  Just to get Mr Mkhwanazi for the other party.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, the PAC does not seem to believe that debating this issue will achieve the harmony and the unity which we want to achieve.  If our Whips themselves have not come to any consensus agreement, the PAC would not like to be involved in throwing stones left and right, forward and backwards.  We therefore agree with the decision of the Whips.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Whip for the ANC?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would like to respond to the points made by the hon Mr Tarr.  Firstly, the way the Order Paper has been drafted was by agreement, that there will be possible further business.  So it was never ruled out that we could be debating any of these motions.  So that was by agreement.  The Order Paper has been arranged by agreement.

Now on the later issue, there is not agreement.  Mr Nel is correct that we were expecting the hon Mr Tarr to move a motion that we could possibly support.  He has not done so, hence my request.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Rule 80 does not provide for the eventuality where there is no agreement amongst the Whips.  I therefore request you to rule, in terms of Rule No 3 (1) to give an interim ruling, or frame a rule, in respect of any eventuality for which these Rules do not provide.

Now Mr Speaker, since the Rules do not provide for an eventuality where there is no agreement.  I am asking you, and I am appealing to you, as the protector primarily of the smaller parties in this House, not of the majority party, to grant the request of the ANC, properly made to you, without incurring further cost.  There is sufficient time left in this sitting day.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Volker?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, not being a Whip, but an ordinary member of this House, notice of today's sitting was given two days ago.  In fact, I received my fax at 02:20 in the morning.  This meeting was a very special meeting, because it could not be introduced in the previous week, because NCOP had not yet addressed the issue.  Therefore, this meeting was called for a specific special purpose, and for no other reason.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order please!  Order!

MR V A VOLKER:  I believe if the respective parties want to do their political in-fighting, they do not do it at this special meeting.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Volker.  May I have the ears of the House.  In the light of what has now transpired at this special meeting, and in view of the fact that there is in fact no agreement which is sought for in terms of Rule 80 on the matter which is in dispute now, it is not of such an urgent and important matter, I rule therefore that this House close.  I support the motion put forward by the Chief Whip, and the matter ends there.

I accordingly call upon the hon Acting Premier, to make whatever announcement he may have.  Yes?


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the ANC, I want to express my regret that you have not granted our request.  We express our strongest reservations about the fairness of the rulings made against the ANC on this sitting day.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Acting Premier?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, I will never get this opportunity again.  [LAUGHTER]  We have nothing to report.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Well, in that event, ladies and gentlemen, may I say that in giving any judgment, I have been in court sittings for a long time, from 1943 until now - I have never known a party which looses the judgment, being satisfied with the decision.  So it is no use, there is nothing new in the fact that the hon Whip of the ANC should have strong reservations.  It is one of those things that must happen in this world.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Once again, the hon Minister of Transport - where are you transporting us to now?  [LAUGHTER]

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  It is quite a serious matter, Mr Speaker.  I must also endorse what the Chief Whip has said.  Mr Speaker, you have granted the Democratic Party out of a flimsy newspaper report, a special sitting.  You granted the IFP a special sitting, and we blocked it as the Cabinet.  Now the same matter comes before you, you make this ruling.  We take very, very strong exception to this.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I believe those hon members are coming very close to being in contempt of the Chair.  Mr Speaker, the special sitting was a sitting where we discussed legislation and other matters.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order please!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Can I carry on?

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order!  Order!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, so I am arguing there actually was no special sitting.  We debated a number of matters and that was that, but out of that debate we decided, and all parties moved, there should be a commission.  That is what the issue is before this House at the moment, a commission.  We all agreed there should be a commission, it is a question of thrashing out the terms of reference for that commission, Mr Speaker.  We can actually bring those terms of reference, if the parties get together, which I am sure they will now, we can bring those to the next sitting of this House.  So that is the issue, a commission and the terms of reference.

The can of worms that Mrs Cronje, the hon Chief Whip there, speaks of, we have no wish to put any worms back in that can.  We want the commission to actually examine all the issues carefully, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes?

MR S J GCABASHE:  It is embarrassing to hear the Chief Whip of the majority party saying that this is a special sitting.  This date is on the calendar.  To me it does not reflect as a special sitting.  Yes, it did happen that it was an issue that was not discussed at that point in time, but I would like you to show me from the Rules as to where does that prevent an issue of this nature being raised, because this is not a special sitting, otherwise you are not in order with what you are saying.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  It looks as though ad infinitum we will discuss this matter on whether or not we should adjourn sine die, because I am afraid some people are not satisfied with the decision made.  I did not, for one moment, expect everybody to be satisfied with the decision I made. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  No, let us get this thing clear.  At the present moment the issue is that actually some people, as the Minister of Transport and indeed the Chief Whip of the ANC is not satisfied with the decision.  The question is what do we do in fact if we are not satisfied with the decision?  Shall we continue arguing that and registering our dissatisfaction with the decision, until when, ad infinitum?  That is my problem now.  The hon Mr Miller?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, an unhappy and unnecessary acrimony is creeping into the whole affair this morning.

THE SPEAKER:  Precisely.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  We would like - you did ask, and I said I would never have the opportunity again, may I then use this opportunity to say, on behalf of those of us who have acted on behalf of the Premier today, we would ask you to rule that we adjourn sine die now.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  I have already made a ruling in that sense, but in fact, the objection is against that ruling, that is what the whole problem is, it is against that ruling.  An unusual set-up where a ruling is made and people come out and raise their objections to it.  That is why I said, people like Mr J J know very well, who have appeared in court a number of times, it happens.  Thank you.  Yes?

MR S J GCABASHE:  I would like to get clarity here.  Are we saying that this was a special sitting?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Whether it is a special sitting, or no special sitting, the point is, I have ruled that this should be the end of the matter and you are not satisfied with it, and you are arguing now whether or not we should argue this matter, after a ruling.  Would you not think that is unusual?

MR S J GCABASHE:  No, Mr Speaker, the Chief Whip of the majority party argued on the basis that this motion cannot be debated today because it is a special sitting.  All that we are calling for is consistency and honesty and fairness, so that in future we do not doubt the ruling of the Speaker in this House.  That is what we want.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Wait a minute, wait a minute.  There has in fact been a ruling on this matter.  That is why the Minister of Transport and the Chief Whip of the ANC, registered their objections to the ruling.  Apparently we must go back again and argue it out why there was such a ruling.  It is not normal, it never happens that way.

May I request that I declare this House closed sine die and the matter ends there.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12:45 SINE DIE
          





